Advice for increasing stakes.....

BenLeewoodBenLeewood Red Chipper Posts: 199
Hello red chippers. Long story short...I've been playing $1/$2 (max buy in $60) and $2/$2 (max buy in $150) for the last couple months. These tables have been LAG heavy. I consider myself a TAG. I know when to open up my ranges so I don't get run over and get action when I want it. But I just can't make enough at these games to make a living off of.

To increase my earnings, I'm heading to the $2/$3 table (max buy in $400). I've been observing these tables while on a wait list and see it's a much different game. Basically more TAGS then LAGS, less flops and whole lot more risk.

I'm reaching out to get a little advice on this move up. Perhaps bankroll considerations.....pitfalls to beware of.....cautionary tales of when "you" went up in stakes...ect.

Thanks guys.

P.s. Hey SplitSuite, this might make an awesome podcast. "5 things to consider when going up in stakes".

Comments

  • Skors3Skors3 Red Chipper Posts: 602 ✭✭
    BenLeewood wrote: »
    Hello red chippers. Long story short...I've been playing $1/$2 (max buy in $60) and $2/$2 (max buy in $150) for the last couple months.

    I'm curious to know where you play that there are these limits. $60 max at 1/2? Is that right?
    BenLeewood wrote: »
    P.s. Hey SplitSuite, this might make an awesome podcast. "5 things to consider when going up in stakes".

    Great Suggestion.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 1,794 ✭✭✭✭
    Sounds like a southern California game. The trick is to get the hell out of 1/2 rake/short stack oblivion and up to 2/3 and 3/5 ASAP, faster than it takes James to make that next poker video or podcast, if that is possible.
  • SplitSuitSplitSuit RCP Coach Posts: 3,116 -
    persuadeo wrote: »
    Sounds like a southern California game. The trick is to get the hell out of 1/2 rake/short stack oblivion and up to 2/3 and 3/5 ASAP, faster than it takes James to make that next poker video or podcast, if that is possible.

    This.

    BTW, great podcast suggestion - I just added it to my list of topics =)
  • JesseJesse Red Chipper Posts: 133
    Are you trying to play 2/3 NL for fun/build a roll or actually as a job?

    What higher stake games does the room spread besides 2/3NL?

    If it were me and I was moving up, I'd just play significantly tighter than I normally would and spend a few sessions just getting a feel for how my opponents play. Mostly, I'm there to watch other people play poker. Main things I'm looking for:
    1. Do players limp into pots? What are they limping with? Limp/call or limp/fold to raises?
    2. Are raised pots headsup or multiway?
    3. How often do people C-bet? Do they 2-barrel or give up on the turn?
    4. If checked to, are players pouncing on the pot or are they more "honest"?
    5. Are players often iso-raising and/or 3-betting?
    6. Anything else that seems strange or out of place.
  • BenLeewoodBenLeewood Red Chipper Posts: 199
    I'm curious to know where you play that there are these limits.

    I'm playing at Oceans 11 in Southern California.

  • sparkyAAsparkyAA Red Chipper Posts: 135
    The skill level at each game is not going to be too much different. Do not get in your own head about it; if you are winning at the 1/2, chances are you can beat the 2/3 with a few minor adjustments. The biggest difference in your game is that instead of maximum buy in of 30BBs, you are capable of buying in 100+ BBs. The game is going to change a little, as there will be a lot more post flop play.

    The best advice I can give is to sit down with an amount you are comfortable with playing, and let the players earn your respect. If you sit down and someone is limping in from EP, don't necessarily give him credit for trying to trap you with a monster. The players you have been making your money on in the 1/2 are going to be very similar in the 2/3; limping in too many hands, playing too many out of position, making -EV plays. The beauty of this game is that instead of these players buying in for 30bbs, some will buy in or 100bbs and you will be able to extract that much more value from them.

    Once you get over the mental hurdle of realizing that you are probably better than 90% of players at the table given that you are in forums like this one, you will go in and crush. Typically the only person holding you back is yourself
  • BenLeewoodBenLeewood Red Chipper Posts: 199
    Jesse wrote: »
    Are you trying to play 2/3 NL for fun/build a roll or actually as a job?

    What higher stake games does the room spread besides 2/3NL?

    If it were me and I was moving up, I'd just play significantly tighter than I normally would and spend a few sessions just getting a feel for how my opponents play. Mostly, I'm there to watch other people play poker. Main things I'm looking for:
    1. Do players limp into pots? What are they limping with? Limp/call or limp/fold to raises?
    2. Are raised pots headsup or multiway?
    3. How often do people C-bet? Do they 2-barrel or give up on the turn?
    4. If checked to, are players pouncing on the pot or are they more "honest"?
    5. Are players often iso-raising and/or 3-betting?
    6. Anything else that seems strange or out of place.

    Higher stake games are $2/$3 then $5/$5. The only problem is that $5/$5 is a much bigger game that I can't afford to buy into (to have an effective stack).

    I'm playing to build a bankroll so I can play full time (make a living). I have a dog boarding business that I run out of my home and I'm a stay at home Dad. I've been playing 2-3 times per week to supplement my income. Id love to get to the point where my wife can quit her job so I can play full time.

    Great suggestions Jesse!!! I never thought of sitting with the idea of observation at the forefront. The thing I worry about is giving a super tight (even scared) first impression.
  • BenLeewoodBenLeewood Red Chipper Posts: 199
    sparkyAA wrote: »
    The skill level at each game is not going to be too much different. Do not get in your own head about it; if you are winning at the 1/2, chances are you can beat the 2/3 with a few minor adjustments. The biggest difference in your game is that instead of maximum buy in of 30BBs, you are capable of buying in 100+ BBs. The game is going to change a little, as there will be a lot more post flop play.

    The best advice I can give is to sit down with an amount you are comfortable with playing, and let the players earn your respect. If you sit down and someone is limping in from EP, don't necessarily give him credit for trying to trap you with a monster. The players you have been making your money on in the 1/2 are going to be very similar in the 2/3; limping in too many hands, playing too many out of position, making -EV plays. The beauty of this game is that instead of these players buying in for 30bbs, some will buy in or 100bbs and you will be able to extract that much more value from them.

    Once you get over the mental hurdle of realizing that you are probably better than 90% of players at the table given that you are in forums like this one, you will go in and crush. Typically the only person holding you back is yourself

    Thanks for the boost
  • Player 1Player 1 Red Chipper Posts: 53
    Have you ever considered being a prop that way, I dont know the specifics but you would get paid to play probably on a lot and you would have to go where you are sent. but it would help you accomplish your goal of getting XP and building a BR.
  • Doug HullDoug Hull RCP Coach Posts: 1,293 -
    edited February 2016
    BenLeewood wrote: »

    I'm playing to build a bankroll so I can play full time (make a living). I have a dog boarding business that I run out of my home and I'm a stay at home Dad. I've been playing 2-3 times per week to supplement my income. Id love to get to the point where my wife can quit her job so I can play full time.

    Going pro is a long ways down the line. I do not know much about the dog boarding business, but it sounds like the kind of thing that would afford a lot of temporal flexibility. A business that, once established, would lend itself to hiring people to free up more of your time.

    Virtually every working pro I know is semi-retired, has a wife with significant income, has a side business that affords a lot of flexibility or is getting by with a low stress life with low income.

    Put in your time at the lower stakes. Arguably the drop (vs. rake) structure in California makes these lower stakes games much less financially viable. This is really a race to the 5-5 level where the games are very juicy. There is a ton to be learned at the low stakes that will allow you to do much better at the higher stakes.

    Doug

  • BenLeewoodBenLeewood Red Chipper Posts: 199
    Thanks for the good advice Doug.
    Doug Hull wrote: »
    BenLeewood wrote: »

    I'm playing to build a bankroll so I can play full time (make a living). I have a dog boarding business that I run out of my home and I'm a stay at home Dad. I've been playing 2-3 times per week to supplement my income. Id love to get to the point where my wife can quit her job so I can play full time.

    Going pro is a long ways down the line. I do not know much about the dog boarding business, but it sounds like the kind of thing that would afford a lot of temporal flexibility. A business that, once established, would lend itself to hiring people to free up more of your time.

    Virtually every working pro I know is semi-retired, has a wife with significant income, has a side business that affords a lot of flexibility or is getting by with a low stress life with low income.

    Put in your time at the lower stakes. Arguably the drop (vs. rake) structure in California makes these lower stakes games much less financially viable. This is really a race to the 5-5 level where the games are very juicy. There is a ton to be learned at the low stakes that will allow you to do much better at the higher stakes.

    Doug
  • Wiki_LeaksWiki_Leaks Red Chipper Posts: 214
    When ive taken shots in the past, i picked a friday or saturday (day which has the most recs) where i knew i could play distraction free. I took the week before off and purely studied my game. This boosted my confidence and got me hungry to play. Watch your vids or have a coaching session if you have a coach. Have 3 buy ins similar to what you are comfortable playing. For example, my 1/2 was 300 cap so i brought 3 150 bb bullets to the 2/5 game (max 200 bigs). Bring the number of bullets youre comfortable with. Your financial situation is obviously private and different amounts of money mean different things to different people, but 1k is a very small amount of money to risk to have a chance to play the bigger game. As you move up (which you must do if you plan to play for a living) the jumps only get bigger. As persuedo said, you are practically dooming yourself playing your current game over the long run. Worst case you bust 3 bullets (unlikely). go back to the game youve always played and you rebuild. As long as youre just as quick to move down in stakes when necessary as you are to move up to take your shot you will be fine. Trust me when i say taking the shot is worth it. GL!
  • LeonardLeonard Red Chipper Posts: 209
    Here is my advice.
    I live in Los Angeles and understand the games you are talking about. I am not sure if you are aware but Oceans 11 recently changed their "drop" rake structure and increased it by $1. Any game low limit game that isn't at least 100BB Max is going to be a bad drop structure in relative comparison to the pot size.
    So like all have said, its best to move to 5/5 as quick as your bankroll/playing style will allow.
    I am not sure how long you were playing 1/2 and 1/3 but if you were a winner, you probably were running pretty well. Not to say anything about your poker game but at 60BB these are just shove fests basically "praying" to win. The drop will easily eat your profits quickly.
    Honestly Las Vegas is probably the best place to play low limit 1/2 1/3.
    As far as going "pro" I'd probably wait awhile, like a long while. Build up your bankroll, alot and only play poker on the side. Have at least 1000 hours logged at a 100BB game to see how the fluctuations will effect your financial situation. Remember we live in Southern California, cost of living here is super expensive compared to say Las Vegas where money here doesn't last as long. And please, whatever you do, don't make your wife quit her job because you can play poker for a living. Remember poker has no health benefits, income stability or even emotional sanity.
    I think if you have say 40 to 60K you can think of quitting your dog business and playing poker.
  • BenLeewoodBenLeewood Red Chipper Posts: 199
    Wiki_Leaks wrote: »
    When ive taken shots in the past, i picked a friday or saturday (day which has the most recs) where i knew i could play distraction free. I took the week before off and purely studied my game. This boosted my confidence and got me hungry to play. Watch your vids or have a coaching session if you have a coach. Have 3 buy ins similar to what you are comfortable playing. For example, my 1/2 was 300 cap so i brought 3 150 bb bullets to the 2/5 game (max 200 bigs). Bring the number of bullets youre comfortable with. Your financial situation is obviously private and different amounts of money mean different things to different people, but 1k is a very small amount of money to risk to have a chance to play the bigger game. As you move up (which you must do if you plan to play for a living) the jumps only get bigger. As persuedo said, you are practically dooming yourself playing your current game over the long run. Worst case you bust 3 bullets (unlikely). go back to the game youve always played and you rebuild. As long as youre just as quick to move down in stakes when necessary as you are to move up to take your shot you will be fine. Trust me when i say taking the shot is worth it. GL!

    Well said. Thanks
  • BenLeewoodBenLeewood Red Chipper Posts: 199
    Leonard wrote: »
    Here is my advice.
    I live in Los Angeles and understand the games you are talking about. I am not sure if you are aware but Oceans 11 recently changed their "drop" rake structure and increased it by $1. Any game low limit game that isn't at least 100BB Max is going to be a bad drop structure in relative comparison to the pot size.
    So like all have said, its best to move to 5/5 as quick as your bankroll/playing style will allow.
    I am not sure how long you were playing 1/2 and 1/3 but if you were a winner, you probably were running pretty well. Not to say anything about your poker game but at 60BB these are just shove fests basically "praying" to win. The drop will easily eat your profits quickly.
    Honestly Las Vegas is probably the best place to play low limit 1/2 1/3.
    As far as going "pro" I'd probably wait awhile, like a long while. Build up your bankroll, alot and only play poker on the side. Have at least 1000 hours logged at a 100BB game to see how the fluctuations will effect your financial situation. Remember we live in Southern California, cost of living here is super expensive compared to say Las Vegas where money here doesn't last as long. And please, whatever you do, don't make your wife quit her job because you can play poker for a living. Remember poker has no health benefits, income stability or even emotional sanity.
    I think if you have say 40 to 60K you can think of quitting your dog business and playing poker.

    Thanks for the honest feedback and opinions. Much appreciated.
  • Riverboat BillRiverboat Bill Red Chipper Posts: 439
    I was advised to step back and start playing 1/2 live and .25/.50-.50/1 online. Several dealers would ask what was I doing playing 1/2. I just said I had lost my BR. I found these games to be tough. "If you can't beat 1/2, then you shouldn't be playing higher stakes" This is true. But I have never understood what that meant fully. I would play 1/2 live and get beat. I would play .25/.50 and get beat.

    So, I got to learn how to use the new things I was putting into my game for less money. I found there are some good poker players at every level. I couldn't beat them just because I pushed a big bet because $6 is a big bet at .25/.50. I had to outplay them. I started seeing it would be two. three of us who would be winning. Get some cards, bet, win or back off if necessary. Play poker.

    I got lucky and won some money. So, I started playing 1/2. Then I started playing 2/4 and 3/6 online. What I found was a lot of these players were not as strong. The difference is they are comfortable pushing different amounts of money to the middle of the table. OK. So, if I get stacked for $50, I could shake it off. If I get stacked for $600, I'm trying to find the exit. But this time I had won all that money, I had the bank to take a loss and not feel it emotionally. I could play another hand the best I could.

    It came back again to playing poker. The same way I couldn't win a pot on the button with A6os because I was overdue, I couldn't do it here. I have to try to figure out who/what I am dealing with in the hand and make the best decision.

    So, that was some of the best advise I have gotten and it's true. You have to be able to win at lower levels to win at higher stakes. And you have to not be concerned about the money.
  • BenLeewoodBenLeewood Red Chipper Posts: 199
    I was advised to step back and start playing 1/2 live and .25/.50-.50/1 online. Several dealers would ask what was I doing playing 1/2. I just said I had lost my BR. I found these games to be tough. "If you can't beat 1/2, then you shouldn't be playing higher stakes" This is true. But I have never understood what that meant fully. I would play 1/2 live and get beat. I would play .25/.50 and get beat.

    So, I got to learn how to use the new things I was putting into my game for less money. I found there are some good poker players at every level. I couldn't beat them just because I pushed a big bet because $6 is a big bet at .25/.50. I had to outplay them. I started seeing it would be two. three of us who would be winning. Get some cards, bet, win or back off if necessary. Play poker.

    I got lucky and won some money. So, I started playing 1/2. Then I started playing 2/4 and 3/6 online. What I found was a lot of these players were not as strong. The difference is they are comfortable pushing different amounts of money to the middle of the table. OK. So, if I get stacked for $50, I could shake it off. If I get stacked for $600, I'm trying to find the exit. But this time I had won all that money, I had the bank to take a loss and not feel it emotionally. I could play another hand the best I could.

    It came back again to playing poker. The same way I couldn't win a pot on the button with A6os because I was overdue, I couldn't do it here. I have to try to figure out who/what I am dealing with in the hand and make the best decision.

    So, that was some of the best advise I have gotten and it's true. You have to be able to win at lower levels to win at higher stakes. And you have to not be concerned about the money.
    Great stuff. Thanks for sharing Bill.
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