Slowplay led to Villain getting top pair.

Seth RSeth R Red Chipper Posts: 37 ✭✭
Winning Poker Network (Yatahay) - $0.02 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

SB: $2.01 (VPIP: 13.64, PFR: 9.09, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 24)
Hero (BB): $2.00
UTG: $10.80 (VPIP: 55.41, PFR: 8.11, 3Bet Preflop: 2.86, Hands: 81)
MP: $2.00 (VPIP: 23.32, PFR: 19.70, 3Bet Preflop: 11.06, Hands: 642)
CO: $2.43 (VPIP: 27.83, PFR: 21.10, 3Bet Preflop: 5.41, Hands: 337)
BTN: $3.08 (VPIP: 14.90, PFR: 12.55, 3Bet Preflop: 8.25, Hands: 264)

SB posts SB $0.01, Hero posts BB $0.02

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.03) Hero has A:club: J:spade:

UTG calls $0.02, MP raises to $0.10, fold, fold, fold, Hero calls $0.08, fold

Flop: ($0.23, 2 players) 6:club: 7:spade: J:diamond:
Hero checks, MP bets $0.12, Hero calls $0.12

Turn: ($0.47, 2 players) 9:diamond:
Hero checks, MP checks

River: ($0.47, 2 players) K:heart:
Hero checks, MP bets $0.22, Hero calls $0.22

Hero shows A:club: J:spade: (One Pair, Jacks)
(Pre 62%, Flop 84%, Turn 75%)
MP shows K:spade: T:diamond: (One Pair, Kings)
(Pre 38%, Flop 16%, Turn 25%)
MP wins $0.87


Was I better off betting into the turn vs going for the check-raise? When villain bets the river can I ever fold here?

Comments

  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭✭
    I'd be looking first to check-raise the flop.
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'd be looking first to check-raise the flop.

    Why? What are you doing vs a 3bet?

    I think hero played it ok. Can consider 3 bet or folding preflop vs a 5x raise being oop.
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭✭
    Hero is playing against V's uncapped range with a flop that gives Hero range advantage. Despite being uncapped, V could simply be issuing a standard cbet. I'm far less concerned with what to if V 3bet-shoves (it's a pretty easy fold unless you have a good read on V) than what happens if you flat-call OOP. Odds are that you'd be check-calling all the way down -- or folding on the double-barrel -- losing you a lot more money than folding after a check-raise.

    Presuming that V isn't nutted (and V is not likely nutted, of course), then you'll either take the hand down there -- and you now have an exploit to use against V in the future -- or have a good chance to stack V when V calls the check-raise and then is close to pot-committed on Hero's likely turn bet. If V just calls, then there aren't that many scare cards for Hero on the turn. You're not risking much by check-raising the flop to either gain that exploit knowledge or to win V's stack.

    I'm not interested in calling 3 streets and just praying that my TPTK hand on the flop is good.
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Hero is playing against V's uncapped range with a flop that gives Hero range advantage. Despite being uncapped, V could simply be issuing a standard cbet. I'm far less concerned with what to if V 3bet-shoves (it's a pretty easy fold unless you have a good read on V) than what happens if you flat-call OOP. Odds are that you'd be check-calling all the way down -- or folding on the double-barrel -- losing you a lot more money than folding after a check-raise.

    Presuming that V isn't nutted (and V is not likely nutted, of course), then you'll either take the hand down there -- and you now have an exploit to use against V in the future -- or have a good chance to stack V when V calls the check-raise and then is close to pot-committed on Hero's likely turn bet. If V just calls, then there aren't that many scare cards for Hero on the turn. You're not risking much by check-raising the flop to either gain that exploit knowledge or to win V's stack.

    I'm not interested in calling 3 streets and just praying that my TPTK hand on the flop is good.

    Why does hero have range advantage vs a MP open?

    Hero likely can't have JJ-AA, both players can have 66, 77, & 76s. What advantage does hero have on this flop? Just because you hit TP doesn't change your range to having an advantage.

    Let's say i raise 66 mp and i get check raised on J76r. Im flatting and letting you own yourself on the turn when you barrel. Your bloating the pot with 1 pair and you still don't know if you have the best hand. I can flat AJ or better and let you barrel off and fold JT-KJ vs double barrels. You playing into villains strength by check raising. You don't gain additional info. Some times villain will fold and you pick up a cbet. Other times you lose your entire stack.

    Your check raise reminds me of the good old days when poker was easy and people when bananas with top pair.
  • NinjahNinjah Red Chipper Posts: 1,172 ✭✭✭✭
    Hero is playing against V's uncapped range with a flop that gives Hero range advantage. Despite being uncapped, V could simply be issuing a standard cbet. I'm far less concerned with what to if V 3bet-shoves (it's a pretty easy fold unless you have a good read on V) than what happens if you flat-call OOP. Odds are that you'd be check-calling all the way down -- or folding on the double-barrel -- losing you a lot more money than folding after a check-raise.

    Presuming that V isn't nutted (and V is not likely nutted, of course), then you'll either take the hand down there -- and you now have an exploit to use against V in the future -- or have a good chance to stack V when V calls the check-raise and then is close to pot-committed on Hero's likely turn bet. If V just calls, then there aren't that many scare cards for Hero on the turn. You're not risking much by check-raising the flop to either gain that exploit knowledge or to win V's stack.

    I'm not interested in calling 3 streets and just praying that my TPTK hand on the flop is good.

    Hero does not have range advantage on this flop and raising here takes a hand that will win its fair share of pots and turning it into a bluff which doesn't make sense. X/r turn makes more sense.
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭✭
    @Austin: We're both right. But, that's because we don't know V's holdings.

    I consider Hero to have range advantage because V's range likely misses this board quite a lot or has second pair or top pair with a weak kicker. Those holdings are faaar more likely than a set.

    If Hero flopped a set, then Hero is a position to do what you said: check-call the flop and let V value own himself, since a double barrel is likely. That means that Hero needs some top-of-the-range hands for a check-raise. IMO, this qualifies.

    By the way, I'm suggesting a check-raise far more often than a call here given the likelihood of a cbet with a pre-flop range that likely misses this board or only partially hits it.
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭✭
    Put it this way: Imagine that you are V in this hand. Imagine your opening range and your cbet range on this board. Then imagine that you are check-raised. And double-barreled/shoved. Brutal. You're going to have folded on the flop and on most turns, and BB in this situation will win quite a few nice pots.
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2018
    Ninjah wrote: »
    Hero does not have range advantage on this flop and raising here takes a hand that will win its fair share of pots and turning it into a bluff which doesn't make sense. X/r turn makes more sense.

    I agree that a check-raise on the turn is also a strong move. I think that the turn card favors Hero on a check-raise on the flop more than on a check-call, though.

    The range advantage for Hero is precisely because Hero likely doesn't have an QQ-AA or AK.
  • NinjahNinjah Red Chipper Posts: 1,172 ✭✭✭✭
    Ninjah wrote: »
    Hero does not have range advantage on this flop and raising here takes a hand that will win its fair share of pots and turning it into a bluff which doesn't make sense. X/r turn makes more sense.

    I agree that a check-raise on the turn is also a strong move. I think that the turn card favors Hero on a check-raise on the flop more than on a check-call, though.

    The range advantage for Hero is precisely because Hero likely doesn't have an QQ-AA or AK.

    I don't see the need for a x/r range on this flop and I don't understand why we would want to force V to fold all of his air that's going to miss 3/4 of the time, especially when we hold an A and can get a big payoff later in the hand against a hand like AQ/AK if an A hits.
  • Danny MDanny M Red Chipper Posts: 353 ✭✭✭
    edited January 2018
    It happens as played even betting turn villain isn't folding with a double gutter and an over... Consider leading turn though because think of the board texture and how many rivers will suck to check call: [villain is 22% to catch up after the turn with his exact hand but] in-game 16% of the time a Q or K will fall on the river, ~1/5 of the time a diamond card will fall, another ~1/4 of the time a 5 8 or T will put a 4 card straight out there and villain can bet big IP... that's a ton of rivers that you will hate any K Q ◇ 5 8 or T for 24/46 cards! keep in mind though raising flop is an option but on J67 boards if you only have AJ 76 77 and 66 you become too predictable... what bluffs or light raises will you have there 55 TT type hands or 98 87 or 65 with bdf draw?
  • SliverOverlordSliverOverlord Red Chipper Posts: 323 ✭✭✭
    the Check raise on the flop seems kind of thin vs a MP iso range. I like the idea of calling the flop with the intention of leading neutral/favorable turns (6,7,2,3,4). Im not sure where 5,8,9,T fall in terms of neutral vs favorable vs bad, but I like the way you played it from that point on.
  • Don'tKnowWhenDon'tKnowWhen Red Chipper Posts: 19 ✭✭
    Please forgive this beginner post but, my understanding of the term range advantage is that the RA belongs to the range with the most "nuttish" combos in it. The BB caller certainly is expected to have better board coverage on this low to medium flop but the RA belongs to the MP open because his range includes AA-JJ. The BB range may or may not have these hands in them depending on their 3B tendencies -- as @Austin points out, a straightforward player will likely 3B these hands. I do sometimes call from the BB with these hands when closing the action. Depends on the openers tendencies, I.e. Against a wider caller, I may 3b to build a pot but against somebody who likes to fire and not give up on pots I may just call and let them bluff off.
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Please forgive this beginner post but, my understanding of the term range advantage is that the RA belongs to the range with the most "nuttish" combos in it. The BB caller certainly is expected to have better board coverage on this low to medium flop but the RA belongs to the MP open because his range includes AA-JJ. The BB range may or may not have these hands in them depending on their 3B tendencies -- as @Austin points out, a straightforward player will likely 3B these hands. I do sometimes call from the BB with these hands when closing the action. Depends on the openers tendencies, I.e. Against a wider caller, I may 3b to build a pot but against somebody who likes to fire and not give up on pots I may just call and let them bluff off.

    @moishetreats

    To understand range advantage see above.
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
    :6C::7S::JD:

    Utg loose passive

    MP iso 5bb vs an utg limper giving MP a pretty strong range being a reg playing 23\19

    Hero calls 5bb oop from the bb, which should be pocket pair heavy and high SCs, suited broadways.

    On this flop 76s should not be in heros range and is likely a fold. 98s is questionable playing SCs oop vs a competent reg who has position.

    What hands can hero check raise here that are in his preflop range? 66, 77, AcJc, AsJs, 9c8c, 9s8s and thats about it. Rest of the J10s+, Kjs+, AJ+, 88-TT, serve best as calls. Even heros check raise range can best be served as a call cause your folding out so much of villains air. I like a check call flop and either check call turn or donk bet turn if its not Q or K. The :9D: which came benefits callers range and is likely to be checked back by a lot of hands. Donk bet half pot about 24c (12bb) seems very reasonable.

    If you can't balance your check raise range with enough value and bluff combos then protect your calling range with strong hands. Other wise you cap your calling range with 1 pair hands and are very exploitable.
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
    @Austin: We're both right. But, that's because we don't know V's holdings.

    I consider Hero to have range advantage because V's range likely misses this board quite a lot or has second pair or top pair with a weak kicker. Those holdings are faaar more likely than a set.

    If Hero flopped a set, then Hero is a position to do what you said: check-call the flop and let V value own himself, since a double barrel is likely. That means that Hero needs some top-of-the-range hands for a check-raise. IMO, this qualifies.

    By the way, I'm suggesting a check-raise far more often than a call here given the likelihood of a cbet with a pre-flop range that likely misses this board or only partially hits it.

    You are also saying mp bets 100% of his holdings. Thats not really how range advantage works. Most players miss most boards in general so by your logic you can check raise every board.

    Lets say villain only cbets TP+, OE+ how does hero do with AJ facing hands like 66,77, jj, AJ+, QQ+, 98s? I played around with the suites and based on MPs continue range, say he folds everything worse than AJ and only continues with 98s+, 66,77, 76s, QQ+ AJ+ to call a turn shove.

    d1hnqw3it0aw.png


    You see why MP has range advantage?
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2018
    @Don'tKnowWhen, @Austin, and @Ninjah -- thank you for your comments!

    @Austin: I think that we are starting with VERY different presumptions about V's play, and that what's leading to our different recommendations.

    If I'm understanding your thinking, then V has a lot of top-left quadrant hands. I think that V's range is a little bigger. In addition, I never suggested that V would cbet 100% of the time. But, I do think that V could cbet quite a lot of the time.

    For the moment, forget Hero's hand.

    A lot of those top-left quadrant hands miss the flop. Even some that hit (say, JTs or KJ) aren't monsters. Yeah, V could have flopped a set or possibly bottom 2 or even a straight draw. But, a huge part of V's range misses.

    If V is the type of player to only cbet with hands that hit, then I agree that a check-raise is poor play. Heck, a FOLD might be better in that case!

    I'm presuming that V is cbetting widely here. If that is a poor presumption, then let me know, and I'm good withdrawing my suggestion. IF V is cbetting widely, though, then he is cbetting with hands that miss, that have overs, or that have top pair weak kicker. The sum of those hands is far greater than the sum of nutted hands. This means that a check-raise is quite profitable for Hero as an exploit. V is in a terribly awkward position given his cbetting range against a check-raise and then possibly a lead-turn-shove. Brutal. Especially because there are not of lot drawing hands in Hero's range: this looks like strength. That's the exploit.

    So, why check-raise with AJ of all hands? There have to be some check-raises where Hero would fold to a shove, and that's fine. There also have to be some nutted hands that are held back to protect Hero's calling range (JJ, for instance, would be a great one). There aren't a lot of two-pair hands in Hero's calling range. That doesn't leave many top-of-the-range hands for to check-raise. If V shoves, then odds are that Hero is beat and that he'll have an easy fold (likely costing him less money than were he to check-call multiple streets). If V folds, then you're taking advantage of V's exploit, and your hole cards don't matter. If V calls, though, then the majority of the deck favors Hero's range.


    @Don'tKnowWhen: Regarding range advantage, I'm going to grossly oversimplify my thinking here.

    Say that V's raise range and that Hero's call range (with the exception of, say, QQ+ and AK) are pretty similar -- lots of pocket pairs, some higher suited connectors. V might have a couple of more bottom-two-pair hands in his range, but otherwise this board hits both players pretty evenly. Except that Hero is far less likely to have QQ+ or AK than V. In addition, hands like 87s and 65s or A6s are more likely in V's range than in Hero's. Add those hands to V's range and take out the overpairs and AK from Hero's range, and Hero's range, it seems to me, is stronger than V's.


    Ninjah wrote: »
    I don't see the need for a x/r range on this flop and I don't understand why we would want to force V to fold all of his air that's going to miss 3/4 of the time, especially when we hold an A and can get a big payoff later in the hand against a hand like AQ/AK if an A hits.

    I'm suggesting, as I wrote above, using the check-raise as an exploit rather than as a way to maximize this particular hand. And, if/when V does call, we need hands at the top of our range at times. This is definitely a top-of-the-range hand for Hero.

    Indeed, what you wrote proves my point, I think: V is going to miss, say, 3/4 of the time. If that's indeed the case, then would Hero be check-raising very, very, very often? Hero's hole cards are irrelevant, and check-raising only bluffs while flat-calling top-end hands undermines the whole premise of the check-raise exploit in the first place.


    Thoughts? I am enjoying and being challenged as I think through this conversation and thread!!

  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Think of it in terms of stack sizes.
    Preflop 5bb
    Postflop 6bb

    Hero wins 11bb from villain 75% of the time
    Hero loses 100bb 25% of the time.

    Yes, villain will fold a lot of the time to a check raise but even if villain only continues with AJ or better hero loses a great deal of money by risking his stack on the turn.

    You say your worried about over cards. K or Q will hit the turn like 16% of the time. What about an ace? By flatting you keep AQ and AK in that cbet this board and now they have 1 pair on the turn and hero has two pair setting up a nice check raise for stacks.

    TPTK oop on a dry board does not do well vs a get it all in range. There are othet discussions where people talk about donk betting this hand only to have villain fold his air on the flop. Check raise for "protection" incase an over card hits the turn is not an exploit. Your allow villain to play perfectly and your exploiting yourself by narrowing his range to nutted hands which is why we say MP has range advantage.
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭✭
    Austin wrote: »
    Yes, villain will fold a lot of the time to a check raise but even if villain only continues with AJ or better hero loses a great deal of money by risking his stack on the turn.

    I hear ya'. I think that we're back to different presumptions about V. If V has a better hand than TPTK here, I imagine that most Vs would 3bet/shove the flop. If V flat-calls Hero's check-raise, then I'd be relatively confident that Hero is ahead.
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Austin wrote: »
    Yes, villain will fold a lot of the time to a check raise but even if villain only continues with AJ or better hero loses a great deal of money by risking his stack on the turn.

    I hear ya'. I think that we're back to different presumptions about V. If V has a better hand than TPTK here, I imagine that most Vs would 3bet/shove the flop. If V flat-calls Hero's check-raise, then I'd be relatively confident that Hero is ahead.

    Why does v need to shove sets, 2 pair, and QQ+ iP on a dry board? He can simply call and let hero give away his money.

    I don't think most players are that stupid. They see a check raise and figure hero has at least J10+ here and usually its J10s+ or AJo+ since it was raised preflop. Of villain ask what is he raising with and answer is Jx? Why would villain continue with worse?
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭✭
    Austin wrote: »
    Of villain ask what is he raising with and answer is Jx? Why would villain continue with worse?

    Right. So, isn't the default for OP to check-raise any two cards? Most of V's hands can't stay in... Obviously, V will adjust at some point -- unless V actually sees that Hero has TPTK, a real hand.

    No, I would not suggest that Hero check-raise his absolute entire range here. And if V has any hand worth calling, then V has real equity. We don't know what it is. I want to charge V for that equity while also protecting Hero's check range. After a C/R or two, V -- and other players -- will reduce how often they cbet in position.

    Exploiting this V with a C/R and also reducing all Vs in-position cbet frequency are two massive gains, IMO. And doing with TPTK, in case you get called, shows that you do this with the top of your range. I'd much rather have to show a top-of-the-range hand here than a pure bluff.
    Austin wrote: »
    Austin wrote: »
    Yes, villain will fold a lot of the time to a check raise but even if villain only continues with AJ or better hero loses a great deal of money by risking his stack on the turn.

    I hear ya'. I think that we're back to different presumptions about V. If V has a better hand than TPTK here, I imagine that most Vs would 3bet/shove the flop. If V flat-calls Hero's check-raise, then I'd be relatively confident that Hero is ahead.

    Why does v need to shove sets, 2 pair, and QQ+ iP on a dry board? He can simply call and let hero give away his money.

    I don't think most players are that stupid.

    Yeah, different presumptions again. A lot of players where I play would 100% 3bet-shove the flop. I guess they're that stupid :). (Looks like you'll start playing more near me, huh? lol)
  • SullySully Red Chipper Posts: 780 ✭✭✭
    I think, in general, flop CR range should be polarized to nutted and strong draws.

    To me, this hand is neither. It's a medium hand that needs to play its equity

    I'm thinking CR range might be JJ,66,77,67,89
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2018
    Sully wrote: »
    I think, in general, flop CR range should be polarized to nutted and strong draws.

    To me, this hand is neither. It's a medium hand that needs to play its equity

    I'm thinking CR range might be JJ,66,77,67,89

    I don't think that nutted hands and semi-bluffs make the ends of a polarized range.

    And, unless I was sure that V had, at worst, an overpair and wouldn't fold, I would almost never check-raise with JJ here. You want all Jx combos to be in V's hand when you C/R with a set; that's far more unlikely with 3/4 jacks accounted for.
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
    J76r

    What hands should be check raised?
    Hands like QTs with bdfd\bdsd, KQs, suited broadways with bdfd\bdsd, 98s

    Im advocating because MP will have air here quite often @moishetreats that the check raise range given it will result in mostly villain folding that our check raise range to be bluff heavy here. If there was a flush draw on board i would throw in some sets for balance. Your range doesn't have to be balanced 50\50. You stated earlier that villain will fold 75% to a check raise. If thats the case 75% of your check raise range can be bluffs with bd equity.

    What hands should be called?
    Any value hands jx, 87s, 66, 77, JJ, 76s, 88-TT,
    All these hands hold their own showdown value and can get money in for stacks on later streets if they are in the nutted catagory. If you think villain has an over pair and is not capable of folding then go ahead and raise 2 pair+ hands.
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭✭
    Austin wrote: »
    What hands should be check raised?
    Hands like QTs with bdfd\bdsd, KQs, suited broadways with bdfd\bdsd, 98s

    Agreed on these! Phew! :) :)

  • Seth RSeth R Red Chipper Posts: 37 ✭✭
    I'd be looking first to check-raise the flop.

    I feel like my hand is too face up taking that line?
  • Seth RSeth R Red Chipper Posts: 37 ✭✭
    Austin wrote: »
    I'd be looking first to check-raise the flop.

    Why? What are you doing vs a 3bet?

    I think hero played it ok. Can consider 3 bet or folding preflop vs a 5x raise being oop.

    Can you explain to me why I might want to fold pre here?
  • sumoswimsumoswim Red Chipper Posts: 148 ✭✭
    Don't agree with a cr flop but why not lead turn?
    Why do you play tptk like a bluff catcher when it's a value hand in that spot?
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭✭
    Seth R wrote: »
    I'd be looking first to check-raise the flop.

    I feel like my hand is too face up taking that line?

    Not if you are check-raising your range here. If V presumes that you are strong and folds when you C/R, then you can C/R many more hands. A certain percentage of the time, of course, you need to have a real hand when you C/R; this is one of those times.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper Posts: 4,296 ✭✭✭✭✭
    @Seth R

    your two questions:
    the turn is your range card not his, a check raise will never happen unless you are behind. This is a natural turn bet from the BB vs. MP.
    You decided to play your hand as a bluffcatcher and did so when he bet his range card. You did fine.
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Seth R wrote: »
    Austin wrote: »
    I'd be looking first to check-raise the flop.

    Why? What are you doing vs a 3bet?

    I think hero played it ok. Can consider 3 bet or folding preflop vs a 5x raise being oop.

    Can you explain to me why I might want to fold pre here?

    Avoid marginal spots where villain has range advantage and your oop.

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