C-bet spot

SicSemperSicSemper Red Chipper Posts: 101 ✭✭
$1/$2 live. Table is skewing on the tight/weak side. V is playing fairly wide though. Showing up with some weak hands that have unexpectedly dragged a couple of pots.

Hero ($350) is on the button. V ($230) is in the BB.

Two EP limpers to hero with :Kh :8h who raises to $15. (Generally a winning raise to scoop the limps)

SB calls, V calls, limpers call. Five ways to the flop ($75)

:Kd :Jd :6C:

Checks to hero.

This is a not-uncommon spot I have some trouble with. It's not a fantastic board to c-bet, but with top pair/weak kicker, checking seems bad in this stupidly bloated pot, but with an SPR too high to ship a mediocre top pair.

This is one of those games where draws aren't releasing even for overbets. My standard line is to c-bet 1/2 to 2/3rd and re-evaluate turn, but I don't really love any of my options here.

Hero defaults and bets $45. V calls, all others fold.

Turn:
:2c

V donks for $75 and now we're effectively playing for stacks on V's remaining $95. V can be on any of the draws, just about any king, and really, any 2p/set here -- the K2/J2 type hands are not out of the question,

Looking for a sharper line here. PSB on the flop is a good starting point, maybe? Hate potting it with no kicker though.

Comments

  • jfarrow13jfarrow13 Red Chipper Posts: 1,193 ✭✭✭✭
    Give it up on the flop. 5 ways to the flop, on this board, you ain't getting this through. Relish in the fact that you will pick up enough blinds to make up for these spots. If they are always limp-calling, select your strongest hands, or find the pain threshhold were it narrows it down to 1-2 callers. If this type of aggression means that you have to put in an unfavorable amount pre-flop in an attempt to pick up a few BB's, well....sadly we gotta play the "I pick better hands game".

    As for this hand specifically, this hand has showdown value (kinda), but in spots like this, just check it. Sure, sometimes you get it through, but this is 5 ways. You instead commit more chips, likely behind, in a spot where now it seems like you are handcuffed to the pot with the middling to lower portion of your range. If you wanna play the blind stealing game, you gotta realize when to not C-bet and stack yourself.
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,486 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I wouldn't say give up on the flop but im checking back for pot control in an already heavily bloated pot
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,610 ✭✭✭✭✭
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,486 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I would also add usually 3 or more limpers per bart, you want to over limp or bomb it to take the pot down pre.

    $15 seems like a standard raise after 2 limpers. I think most people live games are not folding for $15. Usually its around 10% of their stack when they start folding. $20 @ 1\2, $30 @ 2\3, $50 at 2\5 etc.
  • EazzyEazzy Red Chipper Posts: 915 ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 4
    I look at this a little differently. I don't mind the $15 raise, I usually make it 12 3rd in (just over pot) but 15 ok. If players call with a wide range thats fine. If you think you can isolate a weak player who calls large bets with a wide range go for it with a bigger raise.

    Now I'm not worried about the limp callers. They would raise AK and KQ, KJ might raise and is blocked and you will hear about it. They don't have KK or JJ (they raise that). so there only big hands is 66 K6s and KT beats you. there are flush draws draws...possibly 2nd pair type hands as they have more Jacks in there range and week Kings then strong kings+ type hands.

    You do have to worry about the blinds....JJ AK KQ KJ KT are all in their ranges....as most 1-2 player don't 3 bet AK or JJ....(if they do betting the flop goes up)

    So if you bet the flop, and the ep limp callers call you know your ahead mostly and can cbet the turn, charge draws blah blah....

    If the SB or BB call, they have players effectively behind them (relative position as every one checks to the raiser) so there calls will be stronger.

    so you want to bet so that the ep players can call with a weak range....I would say a nice exploitable 30 35 (mimic what many low stake players often double the flop bet), by making the original raise 12, I keep ranges wider and a $30 bet would work great....if sb or bb calls I probably shut down...use my position to get to the river (and decide if they would bet a busted draw on the river) ....If ep call I'm betting the turn again not to large keep the elastic parts of the range alive....(maybe 50 to 70).....

    When the BB calls alarm bells go off. And when he then donks $75 on the turn...easy fold.....You bet into a drawy board in a 5 way pot....you told him you had a hand....and on the turn he says I don't care, he has AK or better.

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