KK Possible MW Action

RoblivionRoblivion WisconsinRed Chipper Posts: 209 ✭✭✭
1/3, Hero covers all villains.

Hero raises KK to 15 UTG + 1. V1 calls UTG +2 with about 130 behind. Based on his play and some conversations he strikes me as someone with a grasp of some basic poker strategy, trying to play TAG, but lacking a little bit of discipline.

V2 calls OTB with 200 behind. She is a good, aware player that can play aggressively on the flop for a medium to large pot.

V3 shoves from BB for 65. He is super LAG right now, probably shoving something like 50% here.

Based on stack sizes and descriptions of those behind, what's your play? Just jam to iso or try to get extra value from the stacks behind?

Comments

  • Danny MDanny M Red Chipper Posts: 353 ✭✭✭
    No need to get fancy with KK unless you want to let a players in with AQ or AJs and out flop you or get bluffed off your hand on an A high flop vs TT... take your headsup 70% edge vs an AQ type hand or 80% edge vs JJ type hands... this equity edge drops a lot more significantly than with AA multiway
  • SullySully Red Chipper Posts: 720 ✭✭✭
    I'm a re-iso guy. I raise to $250

    My extra value comes from the times the short stacks say f**k it and come along anyways
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,486 ✭✭✭✭✭
    you have one player all in for $65
    UTG1 $15
    UTG2 ($145) $15 ($130 behind)
    BTN ($215) $15 ($200 behind)
    BB all in $65

    there is $110 in the pot with $50 to call. I am just calling the $50 here and welcoming the other stacks to come in. You might be able to get Utg2 to jam $80 on top of that or just fold. You will be going to the flop with a 1 SPR and only have to worry about an ace on the flop, all other flops you just jam it in being first to act. Once you call the $50 they will be getting 3:1 on a call, so maybe 1 or both will come a long. I am trying to maximize KK here for long run value and not be 70-80% vs just the BB for a small pot. If you jam and others fold you are playing for $160 where as if you just call and get the other two players to commit you can play for $650ish? I'll take my chances multiway.
  • Don'tKnowWhenDon'tKnowWhen Red Chipper Posts: 19 ✭✭
    I was originally inclined to answer: just jam and get it in good. UTG+2 may still call. But Austin's answer has changed my mind. Nice post @Austin.
  • Don'tKnowWhenDon'tKnowWhen Red Chipper Posts: 19 ✭✭
    @Austin do you still jam the flop if an Ace falls ??
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,755 ✭✭✭✭
    Austin wrote: »
    you have one player all in for $65
    UTG1 $15
    UTG2 ($145) $15 ($130 behind)
    BTN ($215) $15 ($200 behind)
    BB all in $65

    there is $110 in the pot with $50 to call.... If you jam and others fold you are playing for $160 where as if you just call and get the other two players to commit you can play for $650ish? I'll take my chances multiway.

    I think that you're math perception is off here. You're not jamming to play for $160; you're jamming to play for $110. Similarly, if you flat and everyone gets in, you're not playing for $650ish; you're playing for $440. You can't be playing for your own money.
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,755 ✭✭✭✭
    For now, I'm in the camp of shoving. Think of the multiple Vs's holdings. How are you really going to get paid off on the flop by a bunch of hands that you have beat? Your hand is pretty vulnerable to proper play by Vs -- if they hit (either their ace or a set), then they're money is going in post-flop. If not, then they can get away pretty happily...

    ...Except for hands like, say, QQ or JJ if they are overpairs to the board. Then, your KK will get paid off. Of course, those hands are almost sure to call pre-flop when you shove given the dead money in the pot and their small stacks behind. I'd MUCH rather play KK all-in pre-flop multiway than go to a flop and give Vs the opportunity to get away from their AJ hand that bricks or to stack me when the board comes T75r and one of them hits a set.
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,486 ✭✭✭✭✭
    @Austin do you still jam the flop if an Ace falls ??

    By flat calling pre if no one over jams there is no side pot, so i don't expect anyone to bluff on Axx 4 ways.
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,486 ✭✭✭✭✭
    @moishetreats
    UTG1 $15
    UTG2 ($145) $15 ($130 behind)
    BTN ($215) $15 ($200 behind)
    BB all in $65

    Lets say four ways to the flop and no one shoves. 65x4 = 260, so your playing for 260. Once you put the money in the pot its no longer yours.

    No one says "i lost a $200 pot" when there was $400 in the middle because 200 of it was theres.

    I stated $160 because its $30 in dead money, hero $65 and villain $65. Hero opened $15 and then 4 bet after being squeezed by the lag in the BB. Other players have not showed any strength and have indicated they only have hands in their calling ranges. I don't expect them to stack off preflop with 22-99 or AQ-A10. That leaves you with possibly JJ, TT, and AK that they may still call a jam with.

    If you flat they can continue with some pockets say 66-JJ, suited broadways, random SCs etc. Then when the flop comed Q83dd and you jam are they folding

    Flop ($260) Qd 8d 3h
    Hero jams covers
    V1 ($80) QhJh
    V2 ($150) 99

    Is QJ folding top pair risking $80 to win 340 immediate (not counting the player behind her).

    You don't want to narrow their calling range.your playing to maximize your profits. When you say your playing for $440 and not $650. How do you calculate your equity? Do you say your 70% to win ($95) which is the 15+15+65? Or do you say your 70% to win $160?
    I'd MUCH rather play KK all-in pre-flop multiway than go to a flop and give Vs the opportunity to get away from their AJ hand that bricks or to stack me when the board comes T75r

    Your logic seems off here. Villains only invested $15 into the pot. You think they are going to now call all in after BB 3 bet squeezed and hero 4 bet from utg? Of course if you know they are calling wide preflop we are shoving here 100% of the time. However, once you shove their ranges become narrower. The more money that goes into the pot or the more money they have to put in all at once the stronger their range becomes. This is why we have multiple streets. You want to persuade them to commit portions of their stack at a time until they are committed.

    Also your so AFRAID of variance and people flopping sets. If i get someone to put in $65 out of their $145 and fold every time they miss a set ill take those odds. Earn an extra $50 7 out of 8 times? You can also hit set over set or river a higher set if thats the case. Have to learn this is a game of money and making the most. Not a game of who can play with the least amount of variance.

    Would you rather win $100 a day for 7 days or win $500 a day for 5 days and lose 500 two days?
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,755 ✭✭✭✭
    Austin wrote: »
    @moishetreats
    UTG1 $15
    UTG2 ($145) $15 ($130 behind)
    BTN ($215) $15 ($200 behind)
    BB all in $65

    Lets say four ways to the flop and no one shoves. 65x4 = 260, so your playing for 260. Once you put the money in the pot its no longer yours.

    Correct. But, you're talking post-flop. This is about pre-flop. If three players are in and it's $50 to you to close the action, then you're not trying win $260: you're trying to win $210.


    As for rest of your comment, I'll share my thoughts before quoting yours: I recall saying this before, but what is undeniably clear to me, @Austin, is that you and I tend to play against VERY different player pools. VERY different. I see players stack off with some of the hands that you categorically excluded regularly.

    And I think that it's quite a leap to suggest that I am afraid of variance because of how I suggested playing this hand. Indeed, I think that I gave a clear rationale for it; it's not about variance. For me, I am accustomed to seeing enough people call all-in pre-flop to want to get it in there. For what it's worth, if I am correct that people do call pre-flop, then I would actually be INCREASING variance by making that play: I get all of my money in when there is a lot more info to come later in the hand.

    My assessment, given the player pool that I see at my casino, is that I am likely to get at least one caller pre-flop and less likely to get that caller post-flop unless there is a good chance that I am beaten. After all, QJh doesn't hit the flop that often...


    As for your final question, that works mathematically, but it's irrelevant at the poker table. If 5 sessions in a row call for big bets with a polarized range, then so be it. If 5 sessions in a row call for value betting and tight folding, then so be it.


    A lot of times, you and I agree when assessing hands. A lot of times, we disagree. As noted, I do think our player pool is considerably different. I also think that I give more thought to decisions and strategy than resorting to a simple, "I don't want to lose too much in this hand" refrain. Let's move past that as a motivation for my thought-process (especially if you are correct that I call light too often, as you suggested -- not necessarily incorrectly! -- in another thread). We can discuss on a higher level than that.

    I would also be willing to bet all my winnings against all of yours that our poker goals in the short to intermediate term are very different. That's okay!! It also affects our approach, and I think that giving credit to multiple approaches, even when disagreeing, would create a far richer dialogue.

    Austin wrote: »
    I stated $160 because its $30 in dead money, hero $65 and villain $65. Hero opened $15 and then 4 bet after being squeezed by the lag in the BB. Other players have not showed any strength and have indicated they only have hands in their calling ranges. I don't expect them to stack off preflop with 22-99 or AQ-A10. That leaves you with possibly JJ, TT, and AK that they may still call a jam with.

    If you flat they can continue with some pockets say 66-JJ, suited broadways, random SCs etc. Then when the flop comed Q83dd and you jam are they folding

    Flop ($260) Qd 8d 3h
    Hero jams covers
    V1 ($80) QhJh
    V2 ($150) 99

    Is QJ folding top pair risking $80 to win 340 immediate (not counting the player behind her).

    You don't want to narrow their calling range.your playing to maximize your profits. When you say your playing for $440 and not $650. How do you calculate your equity? Do you say your 70% to win ($95) which is the 15+15+65? Or do you say your 70% to win $160?
    I'd MUCH rather play KK all-in pre-flop multiway than go to a flop and give Vs the opportunity to get away from their AJ hand that bricks or to stack me when the board comes T75r

    Your logic seems off here. Villains only invested $15 into the pot. You think they are going to now call all in after BB 3 bet squeezed and hero 4 bet from utg? Of course if you know they are calling wide preflop we are shoving here 100% of the time. However, once you shove their ranges become narrower. The more money that goes into the pot or the more money they have to put in all at once the stronger their range becomes. This is why we have multiple streets. You want to persuade them to commit portions of their stack at a time until they are committed.

    Also your so AFRAID of variance and people flopping sets. If i get someone to put in $65 out of their $145 and fold every time they miss a set ill take those odds. Earn an extra $50 7 out of 8 times? You can also hit set over set or river a higher set if thats the case. Have to learn this is a game of money and making the most. Not a game of who can play with the least amount of variance.

    Would you rather win $100 a day for 7 days or win $500 a day for 5 days and lose 500 two days?

  • RoblivionRoblivion WisconsinRed Chipper Posts: 209 ✭✭✭
    In regards to player pool differences, I'm pretty sure @moishetreats and I play at the same card room, and I can confirm the pool in general can be found stacking off pretty light to a shove in this spot. However, I'm not sure these specific two players do - UTG+2 probably gets it in 88+, AQ+, but the button was definitely smarter than that.
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,486 ✭✭✭✭✭
    @moishetreats sorry if it came off as a personal attack on your play. I use extreme examples to emphasize my points.

    If players are stacking off 88+ AQ+ MW with only $15 committed. Facing a 3 bet and 4 bet then i think opening $15 (5bb) is not very good. Comment being they will fold if they miss post flop. If they are willing to stack off 88 pre why only open $15? Should be opening 10x instead or even 20x? The logic doesn't make sense to me where they stack off preflop super light but not light post flop? Not sure why there is a big gap there. Making this assumption because you said sets or over pairs will stack off.

    I thought i played in pretty loose games. Your game sounds like a gold mine.

    $12-$18 is pretty standard in 1\3 games. I think in this particular game i would flirt with $25 sizing with top 5% or so and then smaller sizing with hands like AJ and KQ and just play face up poker. This player pool seems pretty clueless so im not worried about balance. If they want to just give me their money ill develop a very exploitable strategy.

    Now if they think your shove reps only AK and they are stacking off 88 here 75% of the time preflop then i don't mind the shove.

    Lets say if you flat and they both call flop (260) if they only stack off top pair or better. Whats your equity vs 88+ AQ+? Also factor in kk will likely check fold in Axx board. Then compare that to them folding to the 4 bet 75% of the time preflop? Again im just making up #s in my head. I figure if they call 20% of the hands preflop, only the top 25% of their range they will stack off with preflop in a loose game. Remaining hands are just giving up their $15.
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,755 ✭✭✭✭
    All good, @Austin. Thanks for the comments.

    I don't want to derail the thread with the pre-flop sizing, but I do what you suggest, too. The lowest that I ever raise pre-flop is $15, and it's almost always $20+... but the issue then becomes other players not being deep enough to sustain such a high pre-flop raise and have enough money behind for three streets of aggressive poker.

    Sorry for the interlude!
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,486 ✭✭✭✭✭
    All good, @Austin. Thanks for the comments.

    I don't want to derail the thread with the pre-flop sizing, but I do what you suggest, too. The lowest that I ever raise pre-flop is $15, and it's almost always $20+... but the issue then becomes other players not being deep enough to sustain such a high pre-flop raise and have enough money behind for three streets of aggressive poker.

    Sorry for the interlude!

    If they call $130 with AJ would they not call $25? Why not make it a 2 street game with QQ+ AK?
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,755 ✭✭✭✭
    Austin wrote: »
    If they call $130 with AJ would they not call $25? Why not make it a 2 street game with QQ+ AK?

    Because I want to play a wider range than QQ+/AK, and that range requires a 3-street game. I can't just open QQ+/AK and a bluff or two to $30 while keeping everything smaller.

    The real counter, IMO, would be to limp all hands in EP and MP and to open all hands to $15-$20 (or more if there are limpers) from LP.

    It just gets awkward keeping a wide range to apply pressure with a large pre-flop opening against smaller stacks. Something has to give.
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,486 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Austin wrote: »
    If they call $130 with AJ would they not call $25? Why not make it a 2 street game with QQ+ AK?

    Because I want to play a wider range than QQ+/AK, and that range requires a 3-street game. I can't just open QQ+/AK and a bluff or two to $30 while keeping everything smaller.

    The real counter, IMO, would be to limp all hands in EP and MP and to open all hands to $15-$20 (or more if there are limpers) from LP.

    It just gets awkward keeping a wide range to apply pressure with a large pre-flop opening against smaller stacks. Something has to give.

    Im saying making it $25 with AA-QQ, AK
    Make it your usual $15 with A10-AQ, 77-JJ and some suited broadways. I would limp 22-66, SCs, and off suite broadways.

    Im not suggesting only playing top 5% of hands. Just betting very aggressive with them.

    You will saying they will fold AJ and 88 if they miss but call any amount preflop, but you want to balance your bet sizing with weak and strong hands? If they are clueless there's no point in balance.

    Im trying to understand your player pool but it's not making a whole lot of sense.

    Ill use the below example of how I adjust to these players and this really happened. One of my old post.

    Huge whale at the table. Playing $1\2 i raised to $20 with AK after two limpers and lost a pot to her against K3s on a river three.

    Two hands later there is a $5 straddle and 3 limpers. I make it $70 with QQ. She calls
    Flop KQ2 she checks i bet $45 she calls. Turns an 8 she checks i jam for about $200 and she calls. Shows K2o. Of course shes not folding but against this whale making it 35bb pre being $1\$2 or i guess 14bb because of the straddle. You want to charge the maximum they will call.

    I think that's the issue we are having. Balance vs exploitative play.
  • sumoswimsumoswim Red Chipper Posts: 135 ✭✭
    Austin wrote: »
    you have one player all in for $65
    UTG1 $15
    UTG2 ($145) $15 ($130 behind)
    BTN ($215) $15 ($200 behind)
    BB all in $65

    there is $110 in the pot with $50 to call.... If you jam and others fold you are playing for $160 where as if you just call and get the other two players to commit you can play for $650ish? I'll take my chances multiway.

    I think that you're math perception is off here. You're not jamming to play for $160; you're jamming to play for $110. Similarly, if you flat and everyone gets in, you're not playing for $650ish; you're playing for $440. You can't be playing for your own money.

    When it's in the pot your money is no longer yours.

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