Adding more 3 bets to my game...a static approach for now.

EazzyEazzy Red Chipper Posts: 902 ✭✭✭✭
Well over the last couple of years I've revisited how I 3 bet a number of times. And I've slightly increased my 3 bet frequency (range). I probably three bet 3 to 4 %of the time (3 to 4 time in a 4 hour session).....this is more 3 bets then the rest of the table put together...

But its still way to little. Especially considering that where I play if there is no flop there is no rake.

In the past I tried to change my 3 betting range, dependent on who had raised based, on how they play after my 3 bet. Using principles from books like playing the palyer. The problem here is I really have very little idea on how players call 3 bets and play after the flop at 1-2 or 2-5 live. There just is not enough 3 bets for me to get a feel (partly because I don't 3 bet a lot).

This also has allowed my inner nit to stop my 3 betting, Trying to reason out a light 3 bet against a particular player type, when I know a call is +EV, stops the light 3 bets. The tagy guy who raises the btn...I have JJ I might not 3 bet after all he has never seen me 3b et he just going to fold everything worse, I should weight for A5s for my first 3 bet. And some how I never end up 3 betting him, or I do it once with A4s, and then chicken out after that without a value hand.

So I decided to take ED MIller the course ranges as a static 3 bet range. Its designed to take advantage of players who raise wide (thats the only info I need). Its a balanced range That is weather they fold too much and I have JJ that time, or weather they call too much and I have A4s that time, over all they have to be making mistakes when I 3 bet them. Sure after a while I might get some reads, but for now I'm just going to do it.

Post flop I'm going to pretty much continue with a 1/2 pot bet, If I missed I'm just going to give up, after that.

The only thing I'm going to consider is weather they raise preflop with a wide range. that it. I been spending the morning going through my current notes on the players I regularly play against, picking out the ones I will 3bet eds wider range against (he also has a tight range). With a few very extreme exceptions (e.g the lag tard who likes to shove over cbets in 3 bet pots with out and A or K on the flop, I'm not planning on 3 betting 87s....) but other wise i'm adding in the "balanced " 3 bets, for now.

Comments

  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,540 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Look, its an Eazzy crawling out from under its rock!
  • SullySully Red Chipper Posts: 720 ✭✭✭
    You might consider stack depths too
  • NYCRyNYCRy Red Chipper Posts: 315 ✭✭✭
    I've run into similar issues that Eazzy has brought up. For example, some 1/2 tables I sit at raising AT ALL is rare. There are many players who simply never raise preflop. Others will only do it with AA and KK. I'm obviously never 3betting them light. And if most of the table isn't even raising then you're not going to be 3betting very often. This is all player and stack size dependent. Some players are almost the opposite where they play like 80/40 and I'll 3bet them very light with anything remotely playable unless I get the impression they are really going to fight post flop. In general I just get the sense that a lot of 3betting doesn't make sense at some of these passive 1/2 tables
  • EazzyEazzy Red Chipper Posts: 902 ✭✭✭✭
    persuadeo wrote: »
    Look, its an Eazzy crawling out from under its rock!

    Well I'm hopping I will see my shadow...
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,486 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Eazzy wrote: »
    persuadeo wrote: »
    Look, its an Eazzy crawling out from under its rock!

    Well I'm hopping I will see my shadow...

    Winter is over, time to splash around in the warm water.
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,486 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'm actually kinda of curious what my 3 bet % is live. I imagine it to be pretty low as well. If yoi table select well, there is actually less opportunities to 3 bet as your sitting with a bunch of calling stations. People say not to use a merged 3 bet range when 100bb deep or less.

    Regarding your sizing what are you looking for? On a 1\2 game standard open is say $10 are you making it $30-$35-$40? Not sure if your trying to balance your 3 bet sizing. AA KK go 30 where qq and JJ go 35 and 40 for hands like AK-AJ A2s-A5s. There is also the 2.5x that people like to use especially against 5-8x opens and your 100bb or less.

    Example 1
    MP ($200) opens to $12
    Hero ($200) 3 bets to $30
    Mp calls
    Flop ($63) T86r
    MP checks
    Hero?

    SPR is 2.7 despite only making it 2.5x the open. I bring this up because you mentioned half pot cbets. If you make it $30 here again the turn ($123) you will only have $140 left and you put in 30% of your stack. I would look at some downbets on certain flop textures like 332 where you bet $20 (1\3) or A65 same thing. Downbets will not make you committed and still allow for 3 streets of value, milking the other player when you fire the 2nd barrel.

    30 preflop
    Flop ($63) 332r
    V checks
    H bets $20
    V calls
    Turn ($103) 332J
    V checks
    H ($150) bets $40
    V valls
    River ($183) 332J8
    V checks
    H all in $110

    Most people get nervous down betting hands like QQ on 332 because they fear the ace or king hitting the turn and getting sucked out on offering 4:1 to the villain. Villain will only hit the turn around 12% of the time so he needs like 8:1 if he is planning to float with AK and only continue if he hits.
  • EazzyEazzy Red Chipper Posts: 902 ✭✭✭✭
    Austin wrote: »
    I'm actually kinda of curious what my 3 bet % is live. I imagine it to be pretty low as well. If yoi table select well, there is actually less opportunities to 3 bet as your sitting with a bunch of calling stations. People say not to use a merged 3 bet range when 100bb deep or less.

    Regarding your sizing what are you looking for? On a 1\2 game standard open is say $10 are you making it $30-$35-$40? Not sure if your trying to balance your 3 bet sizing. AA KK go 30 where qq and JJ go 35 and 40 for hands like AK-AJ A2s-A5s. There is also the 2.5x that people like to use especially against 5-8x opens and your 100bb or less.

    The ranges Ed has in the Course are polarized, Against tight raiser its AA KK and A5s......

    Against looser raisers it shifts a bit by position....Something like AK AA-QQ A2s-A5s to 3 betting on he btn something like AK AQ...JJ+ A2s-A5s A7s 89s 67s...

    Again I'm simply counting on the fact that if they raise two wide, they will have to much junk, and either have to over fold, or fold on the flop too much, or have to call me down too much when I have a hand. And if they float 3 bet flops a lot, I will be exploited and have to make adjustments. work in progress...

    As far as bet sizing...against normalish raises 7 to 12 type thing...probably around 3 times possibly a little less 100bb... against bigger ones, probably closer to 2.5 times the raise (assuming I believe they make raises with big bets with wide ranges).

    Plan on Cbetting 1/2 pot ish, but I did like your comments in another post about C betting smaller in 3 bet pots.

    I currently think I 3 bet about 3 or 4%....and hope to see that go up to 5 or 6%...not exactly Mr aggressive....but need to start somewhere.


  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,486 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Eazzy wrote: »
    Austin wrote: »
    I'm actually kinda of curious what my 3 bet % is live. I imagine it to be pretty low as well. If yoi table select well, there is actually less opportunities to 3 bet as your sitting with a bunch of calling stations. People say not to use a merged 3 bet range when 100bb deep or less.

    Regarding your sizing what are you looking for? On a 1\2 game standard open is say $10 are you making it $30-$35-$40? Not sure if your trying to balance your 3 bet sizing. AA KK go 30 where qq and JJ go 35 and 40 for hands like AK-AJ A2s-A5s. There is also the 2.5x that people like to use especially against 5-8x opens and your 100bb or less.

    The ranges Ed has in the Course are polarized, Against tight raiser its AA KK and A5s......

    Against looser raisers it shifts a bit by position....Something like AK AA-QQ A2s-A5s to 3 betting on he btn something like AK AQ...JJ+ A2s-A5s A7s 89s 67s...

    Again I'm simply counting on the fact that if they raise two wide, they will have to much junk, and either have to over fold, or fold on the flop too much, or have to call me down too much when I have a hand. And if they float 3 bet flops a lot, I will be exploited and have to make adjustments. work in progress...

    As far as bet sizing...against normalish raises 7 to 12 type thing...probably around 3 times possibly a little less 100bb... against bigger ones, probably closer to 2.5 times the raise (assuming I believe they make raises with big bets with wide ranges).

    Plan on Cbetting 1/2 pot ish, but I did like your comments in another post about C betting smaller in 3 bet pots.

    I currently think I 3 bet about 3 or 4%....and hope to see that go up to 5 or 6%...not exactly Mr aggressive....but need to start somewhere.


    I think 5-6% in a live setting is actually pretty aggro for low stakes. Its hard to get that high because player pool is raising AQ+ 99+ so we need a polarized range as you said. If they are raising 5% of hands in general, which is the range above then 3 betting more than 5% can be a little difficult cause you cant expect much fold equity.

    Also one thing i picked up from Bart is not to 3 bet 98s because the times you make a straight you often run into AK on QJT. Ed's range seems good overall. I will openly admit because I don't think Ed is very modern to today's games ive never took much interest in his work. I've focused more on this forum, latb, and some random videos and articles. I appreciate you posting some of his ranges to be analysed. I think if your 3 betting A5s-A2s vs opend in 1\2 you may not do too well at 2.5x. I find you get called by bigger aces a lot. That's just my experience. Ive studied those a bunch and use to 3 bet all kinds of suited aces and i dont have data on it overall but i feel i value owned myself a lot. I thought i had more FE than I actually had. Just be careful with those. I would advise something like 4x from $10 to $40 with those and avoid cbetting unless your stacking off in a 3 bet pot.

    Example
    EP limps
    Ep2 limps
    Mp makes it $12
    Hero BTN raises to $45
    Only MP calls

    Flop ($97). J74
    Mp checks
    Hero ($155) ?

    Now its a jam or fold situation. Cbetting and giving up, even with a down bet is commiting too many chips. On latb, think his name was matt, mentioned the commitment point is 38.5%. After that your burning money and should just go all in. In a $1\$2 game with $200 effective rule of thumb is not to commit more than $77 when bluffing.

    Hopefully this helps. I think you are more studied and more experienced than me in a live setting based on some previous post, so take the advice as a grain of salt. I look forward to some hand history post regarding 3 bet pots at $1\$2. Also I would read some of @Danny M post because his $1\$2 post from ignition are pretty good and lots of 3 bet examples.
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,755 ✭✭✭✭
    Opening up my pre-flop 3betting range a few months has been a HUGE key and boon to my game. Huge.

    1) Even if you don't have enough opportunities to see how players react when others do it, you can see how they react when you do it. You'll have to experiment a little.

    2) You don't need info from players exclusively in a 3bet pot. Ever hear someone grumble, "I know you're bluffing but I just can't call"? Yeah, 3bet them a lot and cbet/shove the flop a lot.

    3) Remember that most players don't want to lose their stack. They want to wait for the "right opportunity". They'd rather make a good fold than risk their buy-in. So, 3bet them and cbet them. Once in a while, they'll call when they have made their hand. But, you'll win faaaar more times than that to make it profitable.

    4) Perhaps most importantly, you take yourself out of the awkward post-flop dilemma of having a capped range. And your range is uncapped on a wider set of flops if you 3bet more than most.

    As counter-intuitive as it sounds, I tend to 3bet more against Vs with 100BB or less. That way, I can apply maximum pressure on the flop to them -- and they'll tend to be nitty and fold or frustrated and call lightly -- but 3bet much less against big stacks. Against big stacks, I want to preserve my ability to play 3 streets and potentially apply three streets of pressure. In addition, big stacks will call 3bets with a much wider range since their implied odds are massively greater.

    Finally, against those shorter stacks, I'm less interested in 3bet bluffing hands like A5s. They'll fold a ton. But, when they do call, I want hands with real equity. So, I'm using a merged range that can withstand pressure on the flop and retain equity.
  • EazzyEazzy Red Chipper Posts: 902 ✭✭✭✭
    @Austin I agree with some of your points. I actually don't agree with your commitment assessment. (I could be tottaly wrong.)

    In 3 bet pots most 1-2 players play very straight forwards. If I raise A5s on an A high board...I plan on checking. If it checks to the river, I might make a 1/3 pot bet. If they bet I might call 1/2 pot not much more. That's it. I'm choosing, well Eds Choosing A5s because it blocks Aces, and on A high boards it can be best. but most 1-2 players don't get over ally aggressive on A high boards unless they have you beat.

    Again as for size, I'm not trying to fold out bigger Aces with A5s.....(sure I don't mind it) but if they call me with say AQ...I block an Ace so if they play fit or fold on most flops....to my 1/2 pot bet, I make money as they have 5 outs so they fold a bit less then 70% of the time.

    It reminds me of an old argument I remember about 3 betting AQ. The argument goes that your committed if you hit an A or Q or if your 4 bet, and therefore you should not use it as a 3bet "bluff" instead pick a hand like A5. But if you were folding AQ, AQ has better blockers then A5, so 3 betting AQ as a bluff (rather then fold it) is better then 3 betting A5...and who the hell cares if you fold to a 4 bet for a minor mistake, or don't go broke on an A high board. A bit of a paradox.

    Your rule of thumb $77 is interesting.....but again I think it often falls in the same paradox as above. If betting 1/2 pot puts say $90 in the pot...and thats a profitable play because you have enough fold equity, but shoving is not....

    Then betting 1/2 pot and folding might be fine, even if you might be "committed" . It at least it will have a better EV then giving up or shoving. I also think at live 1-2 against most regs the commitment level might be higher.....folding here is not going to be burning money, it more like over tipping....

    The 98s is interesting. I did consider using KTo to replace the suited connector part, partly because 98s type hand works as a call, Kto does not. The straight problems, may be another reason to change this.

    For now I'm not going to worry about folding committed hands, or getting in a few tough spots. I want to generate a few hands, with a simple strategy...see how people respond...Take them home and think about them....and hopefully come up with an effective strategy.
  • EazzyEazzy Red Chipper Posts: 902 ✭✭✭✭
    Opening up my pre-flop 3betting range a few months has been a HUGE key and boon to my game. Huge.

    1) Even if you don't have enough opportunities to see how players react when others do it, you can see how they react when you do it. You'll have to experiment a little.

    2) You don't need info from players exclusively in a 3bet pot. Ever hear someone grumble, "I know you're bluffing but I just can't call"? Yeah, 3bet them a lot and cbet/shove the flop a lot.

    3) Remember that most players don't want to lose their stack. They want to wait for the "right opportunity". They'd rather make a good fold than risk their buy-in. So, 3bet them and cbet them. Once in a while, they'll call when they have made their hand. But, you'll win faaaar more times than that to make it profitable.

    4) Perhaps most importantly, you take yourself out of the awkward post-flop dilemma of having a capped range. And your range is uncapped on a wider set of flops if you 3bet more than most.

    As counter-intuitive as it sounds, I tend to 3bet more against Vs with 100BB or less. That way, I can apply maximum pressure on the flop to them -- and they'll tend to be nitty and fold or frustrated and call lightly -- but 3bet much less against big stacks. Against big stacks, I want to preserve my ability to play 3 streets and potentially apply three streets of pressure. In addition, big stacks will call 3bets with a much wider range since their implied odds are massively greater.

    Finally, against those shorter stacks, I'm less interested in 3bet bluffing hands like A5s. They'll fold a ton. But, when they do call, I want hands with real equity. So, I'm using a merged range that can withstand pressure on the flop and retain equity.

    Thanks this was quite inspiring. I may have to read it over if I run into a few bad 3 bet spots early on to keep me on track.
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,486 ✭✭✭✭✭
    @moishetreats
    As counter-intuitive as it sounds, I tend to 3bet more against Vs with 100BB or less. That way, I can apply maximum pressure on the flop to them -- and they'll tend to be nitty and fold or frustrated and call lightly -- but 3bet much less against big stacks. Against big stacks, I want to preserve my ability to play 3 streets and potentially apply three streets of pressure. In addition, big stacks will call 3bets with a much wider range since their implied odds are massively greater.

    Finally, against those shorter stacks, I'm less interested in 3bet bluffing hands like A5s. They'll fold a ton. But, when they do call, I want hands with real equity. So, I'm using a merged range that can withstand pressure on the flop and retain equity.

    funny that you say this because if you read some of my previous post from not that long ago these were my thoughts as well. I couldn't wrap my head around not using a merged range vs short stacks who stack off light. I've spent a ton of time studying this after being the only player in this forum with this logic. All the pros and most members insisted on using a polarized range against short stacks and merged range against deep stacks. I still have not fully grasped it yet. There is a ton of info on this forum regarding this though.

    link below if you want to read through. I will have to read through it once more as well. Refocusing on fundamentals once a month or so is definitely a good habbit. I suggest reading through it before making the mistake I was making and going to continue to make before some members talked me out of it.

    https://forum.redchippoker.com/discussion/8399/merge-vs-polarized-for-3-betting#latest
  • ChipXtractorChipXtractor Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 1,186 ✭✭✭✭
    If only some world class player would make a 3hr webinar on this very subject for less than the cost of a single $1-2 buyin .... We can dream ....
    Twitter = @ChipXtractor
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,755 ✭✭✭✭
    Austin wrote: »
    funny that you say this because if you read some of my previous post from not that long ago these were my thoughts as well. I couldn't wrap my head around not using a merged range vs short stacks who stack off light. I've spent a ton of time studying this after being the only player in this forum with this logic. All the pros and most members insisted on using a polarized range against short stacks and merged range against deep stacks. I still have not fully grasped it yet. There is a ton of info on this forum regarding this though.

    I'm with you 100%, clearly. Just as much after reading the thread.

    Deep-stacked? Yeah, polarized. Vs. a nittier player? Yeah, polarized. Short-stacked, especially vs. a non-nitty player? Definitely merged, IMO. If I'm going to be getting it in more than usual, then I want strong hands. Your KQ example in that thread is a perfect example.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,540 ✭✭✭✭✭
    If only some world class player would make a 3hr webinar on this very subject for less than the cost of a single $1-2 buyin .... We can dream ....

    #elephantsolutions
  • TravisTravis Red Chipper Posts: 430 ✭✭✭
    I too am widening my 3 bets. I get most comfortable after being at table a couple hours. By then my table image gives me fold equity on various streets.
    The first thing i ask is do I want heads up or multiway with this hand? Then do indent heads up or multiway with that player? Then do i want heads up or multiway on this table...
    Quite often the answers change as the session progresses...
    The other night at 2/5 I 3bet with KQs to isolate. Took down a monster pot against AK. Then later made the same play but with 97s. Another big pot. After that when I three bet I would get multiple callers making massive pots. Instead of tightening up I just make the game 5/10. ...
    People don't notice when you 3bet and then fold on the flop or turn. They do notice what you show on the river. I am confident in my post flop play so don't mind playing massive pots with speculative hands. In part because my image has created an environment where I get paid off... even when I play face up.... can't tell you how often the opponents will name my hand, and it beats theirs, yet they call anyway for their whole stack. And I show they were right
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,755 ✭✭✭✭
    Travis wrote: »
    The first thing i ask is do I want heads up or multiway with this hand? Then do indent heads up or multiway with that player? Then do i want heads up or multiway on this table...

    Could you help me understand this order? My instinct would be to ask the questions in the reverse order. What is my general plan for the table, and then how do I adapt it for my opponent, and, finally, how do I accommodate this specific hand to my general plan?
  • TravisTravis Red Chipper Posts: 430 ✭✭✭
    Travis wrote: »
    The first thing i ask is do I want heads up or multiway with this hand? Then do indent heads up or multiway with that player? Then do i want heads up or multiway on this table...

    Could you help me understand this order? My instinct would be to ask the questions in the reverse order. What is my general plan for the table, and then how do I adapt it for my opponent, and, finally, how do I accommodate this specific hand to my general plan?

    Ok there is a whole group of hands that are too strong to fold but don't like multiway... A9-AJo, KQo, 76-89s. These hands I am more likely to 3bet so I end up heads up in position.
    If it is a bad orvweak player I will 3bet most suited Ax and pocket pairs 77+. They will pay me off when I hit and I want them heads up.
    Some opponents open so wide, and especially if there are limped before the raise, I may just call instead. Because I can outplay them postflop... bluff better, and their actions show weak holdings..
    Lastly some tables are loose and will end up multiway when I 3 bet. So now the above hands are calls or folds. But now I 3bet suited connectors and one rappers that have a 5 or 10. Who 3bets these? ... so I get credit for big hand on Broadway boards, when I hit my hand I take stacks... these are the situations no one notices when I check fold the flop, because other action continues.
    That's how I balance my 3bets against 3betting just premium hands
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,755 ✭✭✭✭
  • EazzyEazzy Red Chipper Posts: 902 ✭✭✭✭
    I appreciate all the above comments and additional things that I need to be thinking about. Will read them over a few times as I work on my 3 bet game.

    I chose to take this static approach, for now not because I ever (almost ever) think a static approach is better, but just to get me doing it. More of an exercise to get a better feel, and stop me from talking myself out of 3 bets, because of this player type or are dynamic or whatever.

    Of course off I went to Atlantic City with my new found aggression. The problem was it was actually only a slight increase over my old aggression, and in some places probably a bit tighter.

    I played about 30 hours, and only saw a few 3 bet spots come up. None were me semi bluffing A5s or 78s type hand (. They just never occurred against a loose raiser. I did however get a few spots I would probably have not 3 bet before.

    My second hand getting to AC...was AA.... Reg fest game around 4:00pm. I new everyone but 3 players....an nobody I new was a loose raiser.

    So this first hand EP one of the unknowns, makes it 9 utg. Second in form Mid position I tend to just call...but Ed's range even against a tight raiser is AA KK and A5s...so I raised to 25, (not the biggest raise and not my intended 3 times, guess I was hopping for action)...I got the HJ calling and ($100 deep) and the original raiser...$200 deep.

    Flop 3 way....$75
    JT5 rainbow....

    I bet 40 (probably a bit too low,)...the UTG called....

    Turn 155 ish 2way...

    Q putting a backdoor draw out...

    I checked it back....can't think of a hand except KK maybe KQs KJs that calls my 3 bet and now calls me that I'm ahead of....(of course I'm assuming reasonable ranges)...

    Rivers a blank I wimp out and just check it back....Probably lost value but can't see bet folding here...
    .................................................................................

    My next 3 bet hand was TT on the btn... Eds range on the btn against a loose raiser expands his value range to include TT and 99....generally a call for me here but new approach....

    Villain was Co with about $125...he raises to 7...I make it 21 he calls...with some comment about how hi is your pair. (this guy tends to comment backwards, so I'm guessing he has either AA or AK, where my pair does not matter)...

    The flop is Kxx.......
    He checks and I bet..25 (check back was defiantly considered...
    turn was a blank...he donked 25..and I folded.

    The other two spots consisted of TT on the btn...against a loose raiser who folded,....and an AK in sb , I might have just called with but here I 3 bet...and raiser folded.

    Though I did play about 10 hours in some pretty loose games with a few loose raisers, and 20 hours in reg fest often with 1or 2 loose raiser, just did not get any other 3 bet hands.

    Well I guess its a start.
  • NYCRyNYCRy Red Chipper Posts: 315 ✭✭✭
    With the AA hand did you know the player? I know in my games that AQ, AJ, AT, KQ, KJ, KT will all call a 3bet and also call a double barrell
  • EazzyEazzy Red Chipper Posts: 902 ✭✭✭✭
    Ryan A wrote: »
    With the AA hand did you know the player? I know in my games that AQ, AJ, AT, KQ, KJ, KT will all call a 3bet and also call a double barrell

    I my opponents are calling 3 bets with your range for the most part, I've been basing my play on some major misconceptions. I'm not saying your not right, god I hope you are,. I'm pretty sure most regs don't but tourist might (I'm hopping).

    In the hand I posted, the original raiser was unknown too me, as was the cold caller. The raise was only to 25 (I think many players call the 7 21 type bet much wider then the 15 45 3-bet), as one might expect.

    Given how both played after that hand, I would imagine a merged wide 3 betting range would be optimal against both the raiser and the cold caller, if for no other reason to isolate them. They were both the marks at the table and went broke within an hour.

    I tend to assume players fold to 3bets a lot, until I see different. But this may be the wrong approach, and I might do better assuming the call wide to 3 bets until I see different.



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