Top Two Deep on a Wet Board

RoblivionRoblivion Red Chipper Posts: 69 ✭✭
Table is 1/3, 6 handed around 1 AM on a Saturday. Lots of flops being seen, and a decent amount of post flop action.

V1 UTG (1500) raises to 15.
3 callers.
Hero (800) in SB, raises to 70, :Kh :Jh
V1 calls, V2 UTG +1 calls.

V1 has been fairly active, but not crazy. When he calls my raise, he probably has a range like 88-QQ, AQo+, ATs+, KQo, 98s+. Though he could be a bit wider since we're so deep.

V2 is just a loose passive player calling with lots of hands, trying to get a piece of the flop.

Flop (240) :Kc :Tc :Js
Hero checks, UTG bets 100. V2 snap folds, accidentally exposing a 5.
Hero calls. I expect V1 to bet close to 100% of his range.

Turn (440) 5d
Hero checks, V1 bets 100.
This really seemes to me like a one pair + draw, looking to get some value but not inflate the pot too much, like AK, KQ, QQ. I think sets and AQ are betting more.
Hero raises to 250.
Targeting those one pair/straight draw hands - I don't think he's calling a whole lot more than this.
V1 calls.

River (940) 5s

There are a lot of decision points in this hand. What do you think?
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Comments

  • jfarrow13jfarrow13 Red Chipper Posts: 850 ✭✭✭
    Pre-flop, good squeeze. Flop....you go into check call. I can somewhat get on board with this line, but I mean not really, not the way you played out the rest of the hand. I don't wanna condescending but it seems like your afraid to play for stacks without the nuts here. Yes, you can be beat by sets of JJ or 10's, or AQ. But...come on man. This isn't a bluff catching hand, and like so many run-outs are going to force you to fold your equity on this board if he pressures you correctly. So, you go for a check-call. It's just so passive.

    Then on the turn, you SPRING THE TRAP! Or do you? Your put more money into the pot, hoping that he would bet his combo draws of KQ, QJ, and clubs. Yet you haven't' narrowed his range one bit, and if he comes back over top of you, your going to be forced to fold. You've set yourself up to fold to any A, any Q, any club, some 9's....like....half the deck?

    I'd rather you bet $185-$215 on the flop, and rip all brick turns. KQ won't fold for 1 barrel. QJ won't fold. Clubs will peel. You can be facing 2 pairs. You can be facing a ton of stuff. Will you get stacked by 10's and AQ? Sure. Or, if it's your thing, go for a bet $185-215 line, and then C/c, C/c river if he's likely to bluff at missed straights or clubs. But your mixing your betting strategies. Your going into passive C/C mode, hoping to see showdown, but then raise on the turn?
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,035 ✭✭✭✭
    I'm with @jfarrow13 here with his assessment of you mixing strategies: you're either going for showdown or going for the stack.

    If you choose the check-call mode on the flop, then I would either continue with it on the turn or bomb the turn. If you are correct on V's range, then you're giving him a gold-mine price to call you on the turn.

    Backing up to the flop, I can see merit leading out, and I could see merit for check-calling (of the two, I'd look to lead out). Did you consider a check-raise?
  • RoblivionRoblivion Red Chipper Posts: 69 ✭✭
    Backing up to the flop, I can see merit leading out, and I could see merit for check-calling (of the two, I'd look to lead out). Did you consider a check-raise?

    In-game, I didn't even consider a check-raise on the flop. I think I was overly aware of my bad position and all the bad turns that could come (a bad turn after check-raising is probably my least favorite situation, and something I know I need to work on.) But, the more I think of it away from the table, the more I like the flop check-raise. He will have to call with most of his holdings on the flop and it sets up for a turn shove on blanks (which he still might call).
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 3,333 ✭✭✭✭
    I think KJs is better served as a call preflop. KJs can hold its on in MW action oop with deep stacks. If you are going to squeeze there is already $64 in the pot. I would prefer to make it $80-90 here. 5-6x in general. With a lot of action in general i would prefer a bit more of a polarized hand but i understand the merged range being deep. Your squeezing KJs as a merged range but the range you gave him preflop is ahead. He would have to be calling wider to make this a merged squeeze play profitable.

    Post flop. I like the check call on the flop as your not getting it all in very often vs worse unless its a flip.

    On the turn ($440) KJT5
    Hero ($630) checks
    V bets $100

    On the turn i think you can shove. I agree its either a very strong hand AcQc or a KQ type hand. If you shove villain has to call $530 to win $1170. I think there are too many bad rivers for you to not shove, A, Q,9, club.
  • Danny MDanny M Red Chipper Posts: 343 ✭✭✭
    Not a fan of 3betting KJ vs EP opens OOP unless you think they are opening super wide or will fold often... luckily you out flopped the hands dominating you less KK... also not a fan of not cbetting that flop after 3betting vs 2 opponents... I don't think top 2 is a hand to put into the X range if you are trying to play tricky put AxAc or AcKx KK and AQ sometimes in your x range you'd be in a weird spot if an A Q T or club rolled off and would basically be turning your hand into a bluff if villain continues and you wish to win the pot...

    River I guess is a bet call maybe like 3/4 pot or so (whatever your river sizing is--I prefer to go about 3/4 to full pot with all the value hands and bluffs depending on texture)... It's a good runout to go big on since clubs busted and you might get called by QQ or AJ if they put you on clubs... but it's kind of close as I don't think we are beating any river value raises but AJc and QQ that are turning their hands into bluffs or a naked 9c8c-- those hands are perfectly capable of making this move however you're repping the straight or set yourself on the turn so I think that it's really really close if you are raised... your opponent has to have some bluffs here to justify a call if you are raised but you could argue that you have so much of the board that he has to have AQ TT or 1 unlikely combo ea JJ KK Ac5c or nada (by raising)...
  • MidnightFoxMidnightFox Red Chipper Posts: 283 ✭✭✭
    edited February 13
    I think squeeze is fine if opener opens 19%, calls often PRE but folds often post, even with that calling range as long as other players will fold often, PRE. Also gameflow might dictate this if you have been quite inactive or game has been wholely lacking such 3-bets; this could help balance your big pairs in this spot.
    As far as sizing goes, with this hand KJs, we would like to make the callers fold, and the opener to continue with most of his hands if he gives up post too much. I like AQo more for a large sizing if he opens wide. Maybe (AA)/KK/KJs/98s for smaller squeeze and (AA)/QQ/AKo/AQo/99 for the larger size.

    Given your read OTF I think a raise is near-mandatory if he fires for that size with 100% of range or anything close, unless he would keep firing post for a larger size OTT. We would like to get money in here with our overpairs and bluff with our draws. If he didn’t have this tendency of always betting when we check, then we would be betting ourselves OTF often. But given your read we should check-raise almost if not the whole continuance range.
    Danny M wrote: »
    Not a fan of 3betting KJ vs EP opens OOP unless you think they are opening super wide or will fold often...
    This is a nit-picky matter of terms, but there are no EP positions in a 6-player game. UTG=MP1/Lo-jack, in 6-player game.

    :Jd :Tc
  • RoblivionRoblivion Red Chipper Posts: 69 ✭✭
    I definitely agree with everyone's stance on the 3-bet, so let me just add some things:

    1. V was opening often - something like 25-30%.
    2. I had 3-bet maybe once or twice the entire session, so expected my raise to get through the entire field a large percentage of the time.
    3. V did not seem to be overly sticky post flop, so I thought I could take it down on a lot of dry boards.
  • Steve JonesSteve Jones Red Chipper Posts: 14 ✭✭
    First of all I like a call here in the small blind multi way, but a 3 bet is fine as well. You just need to be comfortable playing a big pot OOP with a deep stack if you wanna go this route. What is his 3 bet calling range? If it is the full 30% that would be

    55+,A2s+,K9s+,Q9s+,J8s+,T9s,98s,87s,76s,65s,54s,A9o+,A5o,K9o+,Q9o+,J9o+,T9o,98o,87o,76o

    You have 69% equity against this range.

    If his 3 bet calling range is more around 10% then you have

    22+,A9s+,KTs+,QTs+,AJo+,KQo

    You still have 65.7% equity here.

    So I like leading on the flop here for about 75% of the pot, so I guess $150 would be a fine bet here. If you get raised here then you will need to consider the villains raising range here. As played I think his range on the river looks like

    TT+,KJs-KTs,JTs,KJo-KTo,JTo

    Which gives you 60.5% equity, So I like a check/call on the river.
  • RoblivionRoblivion Red Chipper Posts: 69 ✭✭
    You don't think V arrives on this river with AK and KQ?
  • Steve JonesSteve Jones Red Chipper Posts: 14 ✭✭
    Roblivion wrote: »
    You don't think V arrives on this river with AK and KQ?

    Sorry forgot about those, as played yes those are most likely in his range. Now you have 73% equity. I still think I like the check call as played. Are you seriously considering bet/folding here on the river? If you bet and get raised you are going to call off your stack anyway, so why not give him a chance to bluff and check/call river?
  • RoblivionRoblivion Red Chipper Posts: 69 ✭✭
    I only had 380 or so left. I bet hoping to get called by a king. I don't think he bluffs this river often because so much of his range has showdown value.
  • Steve JonesSteve Jones Red Chipper Posts: 14 ✭✭
    Roblivion wrote: »
    I only had 380 or so left. I bet hoping to get called by a king. I don't think he bluffs this river often because so much of his range has showdown value.

    So you bet all in the $380 correct? Seems fine, the pot is almost 1K at this point so I don't think you are ever folding by the river here anyway. The real problem with this hand that I have is that you make a 3 bet and hit top 2, you should be pretty much playing for stacks by the turn. That is why I would reconsider getting into this position in the first place. If I 3 bet this hand I would have gone $150 on the flop, with the turn the 5, I am jamming the turn.
  • RoblivionRoblivion Red Chipper Posts: 69 ✭✭
    So you bet all in the $380 correct?

    Yeah, I jammed.
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 3,333 ✭✭✭✭
    I'm in disagreement here with fast playing KhJh on KcJsTc board. Has anyone looked at Hero's Equity when he bets flop ($240) and gets jammed on?

    Flop ($240) :KC: :TC: :JS:
    Hero ($730) bets $180 with $550 behind
    V jams
    Hero ? Calling 550 to win $1150

    Can't really fold here with top two after bloating the pot preflop in a 3 SPR pot. What is hero's equity vs the shove?

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  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 3,333 ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 13
    For the suites i gave villain a lot of KxQc, AcKx, two pairs, AQ, i only see this as a fast play if you start throwing in hands villain will have such as QJo, JTo etc but those are not likely in a utg and call a 3 bet. On a 5 of diamonds turn im actually really surprised hero's equity is only 45% with that same range above. All suites have been accounted for in the range.

    I added in all Ac9c-Ac2c and villain is still 55% on the flop. If you want to throw in off suite JT, KT, KJ hands then you have to include Q9s as well i think.

    Playing two pair, from what I learned from Kagey in the past (hopefully I'm not mis spoken here) is questionable at best.

    Now im 2nd guessing the turn check raise all in. That was based on hero's read though of pair + draw type hand. If hero faces say another half pot turn bet then i think just calling down is in order.
  • Steve JonesSteve Jones Red Chipper Posts: 14 ✭✭
    Austin, I agree. If V jams flop we are pretty screwed. If V calls 150 flop, then we jam turn.

    As I said before, I really like calling pre here and playing a small pot oop. As played with the 3 bet we have put ourselves in a very tough spot.
  • RoblivionRoblivion Red Chipper Posts: 69 ✭✭
    @Austin illustrates well what I was thinking during the hand. The bottom of his continuing range has decent equity, and the top of it has me smoked.

    I don't mind trying to get it in eventually, but I think going about it by leading flop, jamming turn is a mistake. On the turn he'll be folding everything we beat and calling with everything that has us crushed. And if he jams flop after we bet, it's a total catastrophe.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,060 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Beautiful spot for those who want to three bet merged from the blind and offer the merged construction price to work out.
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 3,333 ✭✭✭✭
    persuadeo wrote: »
    Beautiful spot for those who want to three bet merged from the blind and offer the merged construction price to work out.

    You prefer smaller sizing? One of Barts video a very similar spot hero made it $100 and bart said it was a little on the small side and would make it $125. I like 80-90 here. 3x 4x 5x 6x etc. I usually cap my 3 bet around 5-6x intial raise. Unless im putting in like 1\3 of my stack then i dont mind just shoving. Example lag opend EP to $15 and gets 4 callers. Hero had $300 in front of him. I might just ship TT-QQ, AK, maybe AJs-AKs. Pick up $75 in dead money.

    Whats your thoughts on sizing? Sounds like you prefer a small sizing to get villain to continue with a wider range. I like the idea IP. Larger oop and just want to take it down preflop.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,060 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I am against the small sizing for a number of reasons, but the more equity you want to push merged the smaller the sizing can/has to be.
  • morel huntermorel hunter Red Chipper Posts: 180 ✭✭
    edited February 13
    "UTG bets 100. V2 snap folds, accidentally exposing a 5."

    Was it the :5h or the :5c that was exposed? I'm guessing :5h was exposed.
  • RoblivionRoblivion Red Chipper Posts: 69 ✭✭
    "UTG bets 100. V2 snap folds, accidentally exposing a 5."

    Was it the :5h or the :5c that was exposed? I'm guessing :5h was exposed.

    Don't really recall, but i believe it was the :5h because it seemed so meaningless at the time. Either way, sucks for that guy.
  • morel huntermorel hunter Red Chipper Posts: 180 ✭✭
    I was thinking V could show up with :Ac :5c given the line he took.
  • MidnightFoxMidnightFox Red Chipper Posts: 283 ✭✭✭
    edited February 14
    persuadeo wrote: »
    I am against the small sizing for a number of reasons, but the more equity you want to push merged the smaller the sizing can/has to be.

    This is from another thread:
    persuadeo wrote: »
    Because as ranges become narrower and narrower the expenditure of chips needed to support the wager becomes less and less.

    You said “can/has to”—
    We “can”, as in we have the luxury of making a smaller bet to get more action and we don’t have to worry about someone coming over the top of our smallish bet, because our range is strong, protecting the few weaker hands in our range, and we “have to”, to give our opponent some kind of incentive to play against a range that is as strong as it is, because if we have loaded the range with our strongest hands and the price is too high, he can exploit us by folding, and we have thus systematically removed those strong hands from a continuance range that anyone will agree to join us in?

    So a more merged range that is still sufficiently strong that still it isn’t spewing, uses more standard sizing that puts opponent’s decent hands to the test, giving us fold equity to make our range profitable?

    But a very strong range has an additional luxury of dropping the price to get more action and paying less to cash-in on it’s greater implied threat, getting a better price on its few bluffs; and It also needs to do this as long as players are aware enough to know the range is too strong to call for the more standard large sizing?

    Does this sound right?
    :Jd :Tc
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,060 ✭✭✭✭✭
    A lot of good ideas in there. 3betting this particular hand in the merged pricing construction is going to put a lot of pressure on the 3 bettor to maximize its EV and the microedge of choosing this path. In other words, playing it poorly post becomes a disaster even if the three bet is theoretically sound.

    My comment glosses what you are talking about and recent discussion with Kenaces on merged/polarization questions from the blinds.
  • MidnightFoxMidnightFox Red Chipper Posts: 283 ✭✭✭
    edited February 14
    persuadeo wrote: »
    3betting this particular hand in the merged pricing construction is going to put a lot of pressure on the 3 bettor to maximize its EV and the microedge of choosing this path. In other words, playing it poorly post becomes a disaster even if the three bet is theoretically sound.
    Or rather this hand, against this range, out of position, puts pressure on the 3-bettor to play very well to squeak out value. (against the continuance range; the preflop open range was sufficiently wide given poster’s read on player)

    —this difficulty is a trait of any hand that is properly at the bottom of our range, correct? I remember that Janda’s recent book talked about this.
    :Jd :Tc
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,060 ✭✭✭✭✭
    yes, and while most troublesome here, even better parts of the strong range will still struggle.
  • MidnightFoxMidnightFox Red Chipper Posts: 283 ✭✭✭
    edited February 14
    Roblivion wrote: »
    1. V was opening often - something like 25-30%.

    @persuadeo
    If opener is opening 25-30%(from this position; dunno if he means in general or from this position), our opponent is only continuing somewhere around 25% of the time after card removal effect. It has to be right to get ourself into a bind 25% of the time to take down the pot or face one of the callers 75% of the time, doesn’t it?

    How wide does our opponent have to be opening, and how much dead money from callers does there need to be to make our squeeze correct, if we will be in a dicey situation when called?

    This is something I need to get a better feel for, and I’d like to hear your thought on this.
    :Jd :Tc
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,060 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Sure - but we assure ourselves of the bind by laying this price. The second part is simply a matter of looking at continuing equities and imagining the endgame there.
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