Stab and Give Up

MidnightFoxMidnightFox Red Chipper Posts: 321 ✭✭✭
edited February 2018 in General Concepts
When our opponents have warped pyraminds(poker’s 1%), we often end up playing somewhat standardized until we get to the street/board in question, where our opponent won’t continue without X-hands, and this creates auto-profit.

But inversely, this creates a continuance range on their part, that in many cases, is too strong to play against beyond that point.

I play in super-weak live 1-2 games where this happens after I C-bet the flop, or after a delayed c-bet on loose/low boards. I don’t fire every time because I don’t want them to start calling, wherein it is somewhat likely they are strong, but they might be calling light, and now I won’t know if I should fire again.

But I am C-betting or delayed C-betting allot—87% maybe, after opening 20% from Lo-jack, 25% post from Hi-jack, and 30% cutoff, 35% button, maybe 13% from early positions, and I’m occasionally trying to pickup many limps from the blinds with a large raise with from a 25% range when it does happen, but it’s based on reads so it doesn’t happen that frequently—maybe 19% of the time the opportunity arises. If there are limps ahead of me from players that limp with strong hands/backraise, I tighten up, but if they fork their hands and limp then I loosen up.

On occaision I will fire a second round because of board texture/gameflow and to mimic how I would play stronger hands that can beat even their top pair.
I have been running into allot of sets, overpairs(smooth calling), and top pairs. If players are tightening up preflop, playing mostly top pair hands, because they know they will dumping allot post against me, then I can’t stab as much post, and if they are willing to calldown I can’t stab as much.

But here’s the thing: they don’t seem to be getting tired of calling loose PRE and dumping Post when they don’t hit, and they don’t seem to be tightening up significantly. I’m often getting to see the hands that beat me, and the times I don’t, I don’t think I’m getting floated. They will often show hands they fold, and they are rediculous flop folds; they should float(even OOP) or check-raise, given the way I’m playing. I’m still making adjustments for non-standard players(even 3-betting against the rare wide opener) or the shades of difference between the standard weak players.

I’m running into a ton of strong hands. I keep questioning if I’m doing things right, but I keep coming to the conclusion that it’s variance. When I’m feeling this way, I tend to tighten up PRE and make sure. Things seem to get confirmed.

With my draws this situation allows me to checkback the turn when I’m IP, and get to see all cards and realize when my opponent has a strong linear range, but I’m not hitting my draws OTR.

I can see my theoretical auto-profit advantages in real-time at the table, but I keep getting beat. Combine this with losing All-ins with my occasional monsters when I’m ahead...and it has been feeling like...this is an exercise in nonstop punishment and self-recrimination. I suppose that’s poker though, right? Doesn’t anyone get tired of this? ^_^

Just looking to vent, but interaction from all is welcome.
How bout @SplitSuit @persuadeo @w34z3l ? ^_^
:Jd :Tc


  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭✭
    I tried, @MidnightFox, to follow your post. I really did, and read it three total times. But, I got lost somewhere.

    What exactly are you asking? Thanks! :)
  • MidnightFoxMidnightFox Red Chipper Posts: 321 ✭✭✭
    edited February 2018
    To be interacted with, criticized, empathized with, whatever you want. Or don’t say anything. It’s free form
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,760 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I have unburdened myself, in another thread. publicly of trying to defend/explain/delineate the 1% book, one which is interesting, compelling, and most of all, misunderstood. The founders here can take this stuff up going forward - especially now that Splitsuit is all over a video series on it.

    What I will say here for your specific problem is that frequencies are an important but secondary lens to work through compared to the fundamentals conflict points of stacks, position, and runout. Using frequencies too literally is like using radar to park your car.
  • MidnightFoxMidnightFox Red Chipper Posts: 321 ✭✭✭
    edited February 2018
    I was using the percentages to illustrate. I don’t actually follow percentage guidelines when playing, I’m just trying to paint the picture of where I have settled-in, attacking the players I play against, since they are completely unwilling to not only payoff, but unwilling to call one time.

    My reference to poker’s 1% was to clarify what I meant by pyramind. What I am describing is a dynamic that requires a specific counter-attack, not a standardized static strategy that I follow at the table.
    :Jd :Tc
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭✭
    I get it: it seems like you are doing everything right, that your opponents are playing poorly, and somehow you're coming home with your buy-ins sitting in front of them. I get it, and it's an entirely disillusioning feeling.

    It's also, from my experience being there, a trap: it's far easier to justify how they're winning despite their poor play rather than analyzing your own. To me, that's only part -- and even the lesser part -- of the bigger picture here. I think that the biggest issue is that you don't seem to be giving your opponents enough -- or even any! -- credit here.

    In your posts, you suggest that they never pay you off, that they only wait for monsters, that you lose your stack when they stay in (isn't that a sign for you to get out??), and that they're sucking out on you. Those don't all add up. And then you add that they are "completely... unwilling to call one time".

    It seems to me like you're looking for a simple solution, "a specific counter-attack", when the larger issue is that you haven't yet begun to understand how your opponents are exploiting you. I'd first recommend figuring out how you would exploit your own tactics, then giving your opponents the credit that they seem to deserve for having found and implemented those exploits, and only then working out your counter-attack.

    You can't create a counter-attack when you don't yet even know how you're being attacked.

  • MidnightFoxMidnightFox Red Chipper Posts: 321 ✭✭✭
    I already reflected how my opponents could exploit me—by floating or check-raising. I’m contually questioning my approach, and I do test my assumptions and make some double barrels where I wouldn’t. Or “give up on the turn” for value and call, or the same as a bluff catch. Sometimes players suprise me, but usually they don’t. As far as stacking off, I rarely get it in for value, behind. What i meant is suck-outs or if my monster is notched.

    I just left a table where people would float me here and there or bluff raise me or bluff catch me on 3 streets: not typical of what I’m nornally playing against. This table is better.

    I do appreciate the exhortation though. I need to remain vigilant, and continue testing my assumptions.
  • MidnightFoxMidnightFox Red Chipper Posts: 321 ✭✭✭
    Was totally card dead tonight, so I got to take down some pots PRE when I finally did raise with something playable which was nice.

    I identified a visiting player’s tendencies, and from the button got some thin value OTR 2/3 pot with a Turned second pair on a bet-check-bet line after 3-bet squeezing him small, folding the other two weak regs out and got the visitng player to call me with my KJo.

    Good plays feel good, even on the days I run bad they feel good. Keeps ya going.
    :Jd :Tc

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