Thoughts on my line here 1-2 Foxwoods

Steve JonesSteve Jones Red Chipper Posts: 14 ✭✭
I had been playing on this table for around 4 hours. Sunday night, a bunch of rec fishy type players at the table. There are only 2 villains that are kind of decent ABC type players. Both players are playing around 30/5 I would guess. I may be seen as TAG or maybe a little LAG by these 2 opponents. Both of these guys are my villains in this hand. So now onto the hand.

Hero $600 :2d :2c in HJ
Villian 1 $375 in CO
Villain 2 $250 Button

So EP 2 raises to $11
EP 3 calls
Hero calls, V1 and V2 call
$58 in pot flop is :2s :7d :Qs
EP 2 and EP 3 check, hero bets $30
V1 and V2 call
$148 in pot, turn :Qc
Hero?

Comments

  • NYCRyNYCRy Red Chipper Posts: 292 ✭✭✭
    I feel like $75-$85 would be good here. Give spade draws a decent price and hope someone has a Q
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,288 ✭✭✭✭
    Why would NOT double barrel here?? Spade draws and queens will both continue, and those are a good part of the ranges of either V.
  • Steve JonesSteve Jones Red Chipper Posts: 14 ✭✭
    Why would NOT double barrel here?? Spade draws and queens will both continue, and those are a good part of the ranges of either V.

    I never said what I did on the turn, I am looking for comments on what to do here, I will post results later. So you would double barrel here, how much?
  • RoblivionRoblivion Red Chipper Posts: 102 ✭✭
    I like 65-75, try to get a Q to raise you.
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,288 ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 13
    Why would NOT double barrel here?? Spade draws and queens will both continue, and those are a good part of the ranges of either V.

    I never said what I did on the turn, I am looking for comments on what to do here, I will post results later. So you would double barrel here, how much?

    First of all, with your flop bet, you want to be in a position to get Vs all in by the river, if that's your play. That requires, IMO, a bit larger of a flop bet given V1's stack size.

    As played, it might take a $100 or so bet to get V1 priced in on the river if he is the only caller. Otherwise, that $75-$85 range mentioned above would work for V2 or if both call.
  • Steve JonesSteve Jones Red Chipper Posts: 14 ✭✭
    So I did bet $75 on turn and both players folded. I was very surprised by this. I figured 1 of them would have a queen here for sure. At this table $75 was kind of a big bet, the players dont really think of pot size, they look at bet size. Thats why I only went 30 on flop, if I went 75 I may have lost both of them. These guys were pretty abc, not too sure if they were paying attention to size of bet compared to pot.

    Is there any way I could have got more value out of this hand? I guess larger flop bet? Maybe $45 may have been called?
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,288 ✭✭✭✭
    So I did bet $75 on turn and both players folded. I was very surprised by this. I figured 1 of them would have a queen here for sure. At this table $75 was kind of a big bet, the players dont really think of pot size, they look at bet size. Thats why I only went 30 on flop, if I went 75 I may have lost both of them. These guys were pretty abc, not too sure if they were paying attention to size of bet compared to pot.

    Is there any way I could have got more value out of this hand? I guess larger flop bet? Maybe $45 may have been called?

    I think that you're focused on the results. If $75 was the right bet -- both to target a Q and a flush draw -- then you made the right bet. The fact that they apparently didn't have either doesn't mean that you made the wrong choice.

    You targeted two specific hands that would likely get you paid off here and possibly on the river. You achieved your goal. The fact that they happened not to have those hands is incidental.

    To be clearer, let's go down the rabbit hole: Say that you bet $45 and get one caller. The river comes the Jd. V checks, you shove, V calls and turns over trip jacks. Would you be here lamenting how you made a great value bet on the turn but got sucked out on? Maybe, but I hope not... The $75ish bet seems to be preferred play. So, well done!! Let the cards come as they may at that point.
  • Steve JonesSteve Jones Red Chipper Posts: 14 ✭✭
    No I am never focused on the results, just wanted to see if I could have played the hand any better. I guess I am just curious if anyone thinks a larger flop bet may be in order next time. Or was my flop bet fine?
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 4,042 ✭✭✭✭
    Flop ($58) :2s :7d :Qs
    Ep check
    Ep check
    Hero mp bets 30
    Co calls
    Btn calls

    *i like a bigger bet $40-$45 on the flop because no one is folding a flush draw or Qx for one bet. By betting 30 you are giving them 3:1 a pretty good price for a flush draw.

    On the turn ($148) :2s :7d :Qs :QC:
    MP (covers) ?
    Co ($335)
    BTN ($210)

    Here if they have trips they are not folding, if they have a flush draw you don't want them to fold. I think $75 is good. I wouldn't go big. I may go like $50 and hope they raise.

    If you had a FD here what would your bet size be? Whatever that sizing is you want your set to be the same sizing.
  • jfarrow13jfarrow13 Red Chipper Posts: 995 ✭✭✭
    Bleed em for da queen. If they don't got a queen, so be it. I'd go somewhat smaller here, hoping to induce a raise from a queen, at the very least get a call. I think $60 does the trick, double your flop bet. Shame, this is the kind of spot we are chomping at the bit for, hoping bottom set vs top trips. Oh boy.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭✭✭
    You guys are back to just playing bingo, blinded by your full house. What you "like" or "don't like" is miles from the point.

    This is a horrible card for your line, as it takes away combinations of what you are repping and slows down many of your bluffs.

    Further, they don't have many queens in their range as played, as they are incentivized to lay a price on the board on this flop where value is easily gained.

    This means you will need to have some checks here to de-elevate your range, and play the river with a coherent set of hands rather than just what you are repping.

    Makes me what to throw up just thinking about how bad betting is here at a high frequency.
  • jfarrow13jfarrow13 Red Chipper Posts: 995 ✭✭✭
    Ops, I guess I still suck at poker lol.
  • kageykagey Red Chipper, KINGOFTAGS Posts: 2,100 ✭✭✭✭✭
    No I am never focused on the results, just wanted to see if I could have played the hand any better.
    the answer you seek is "yes"
    there comes a time when you need to consider what your opponents are playing.
    as well as your table image, before you bet, call or fold.

    for example:
    I may be seen as TAG or maybe a little LAG by these 2 opponents.
    Really?
    Are you both Donny AND Marie?
    So, do they call you LaTAG or Talag?
    My guess is you don't know what your perceived image is and hence don't know how to evaluate opponents properly.
    There are only 2 villains that are kind of decent ABC type players.
    If the two players behind you are TAG... then the Q on the turn should only be called by a Q (or 77). That doesn't leave a whole lotta combos in their range.

    When you consider what types of hands your opponents should be holding as well as what types of hands you typically show up with... you'll know when to bet and when to check.

    In this hand - you seem to only be playing your hand.
    When you start to play your range instead of your hand - you will have graduated from being a nut peddler to a true poker player. This typically results in getting more action and having you bluff more. And you also won't be labeling folks with the inefficient descriptors of LAG, TAG and fish.
    The funny thing about poker... the better you are at playing the game, the less you hear words like "fish" or "donkey" used. When your vocabulary improves, you game will as well.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭✭✭
    jfarrow13 wrote: »
    Ops, I guess I still suck at poker lol.

    Eh, don't worry, i overstated this one.
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 4,042 ✭✭✭✭
    I agree there are not a lot of Qx hands if they are tag because they are not likely calling QJo, but then again its 1\2 so i do expect quite a few Qx to be in their range. Also being 1\2 i like to keep betting or possibly go for a check raise, but 1\2 players are so trappy they may check back Qx which is a disaster. I could also see a bet of like $40 because as you said they are looking at bet size not pot size. I don't like checking here very much and not really worried about balancing other hands. When the flop is bet its qx 22, 77, or nfd, pair +fd.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Yes, a small bet is a good compromise, as it represents a wider range of hands.
  • Danny MDanny M Red Chipper Posts: 353 ✭✭✭
    Exploitively I understand betting is good however I don't mind a check on the turn with balance in mind... you've got a pretty good lock on the hand and really just dont want to see a 7 or Q and if V has a Q he's got a 3 outer to beat you... plus as PF caller vs EP opens what Q's do you have like maybe 4 QJs QTs... are you going multiway and pricing in the blinds pre with hands like AQ and KQ? What bluffs do you have OTT once the board pairs? Will you bet the medium strength hands like 33-66 88-TT 76 87 with some frequency?
  • Steve JonesSteve Jones Red Chipper Posts: 14 ✭✭

    Austin wrote: »

    If you had a FD here what would your bet size be? Whatever that sizing is you want your set to be the same sizing.

    I agree with this, and I often bluff the turn with fold equity and outs, so yea, I'm betting all my suited connectors, 1 gappers, and broadway cards in spades on this turn as played.

    I also believe that at least 1 of these guys may suspect that my range OTT
    includes semi-bluffs.
  • Steve JonesSteve Jones Red Chipper Posts: 14 ✭✭
    kagey wrote: »
    No I am never focused on the results, just wanted to see if I could have played the hand any better.
    the answer you seek is "yes"
    there comes a time when you need to consider what your opponents are playing.
    as well as your table image, before you bet, call or fold.

    for example:
    I may be seen as TAG or maybe a little LAG by these 2 opponents.
    Really?
    Are you both Donny AND Marie?
    So, do they call you LaTAG or Talag?
    My guess is you don't know what your perceived image is and hence don't know how to evaluate opponents properly.

    Why would you make this guess? I can't know exactly what these 2 opponents are thinking, but I have been playing with them for a few hours. I have been bombing over limpers in late position for $15-$20 pre flop the whole time. These guys were making comments about that to each other. So my guess is they are thinking I am playing TAG or a bit LAG. That is how I was evaluating these opponents. How was that an improper evaluation?? I didn't want to write a huge OP because I just wanted to post the hand, but after your comments I guess you needed an explanation.

    Also Ed Miller, who is an expert writer and poker coach uses the terms TAG, and LAG all the time. It is an easy way to describe a style of play. I never used the word fish in my post, and in your reply you said that I did.

    While I appreciate constructive dialogue, and I hope I get opposing views so I can learn, your post seems more like you just want to insult and prove that you know more than everyone else.
  • Steve JonesSteve Jones Red Chipper Posts: 14 ✭✭
    I guess I did say the table was generally fishy, but I was just trying to describe that it was a pretty typical 1-2 table on a weekend night.
  • Steve JonesSteve Jones Red Chipper Posts: 14 ✭✭
    Austin wrote: »
    Flop ($58) :2s :7d :Qs
    Ep check
    Ep check
    Hero mp bets 30
    Co calls
    Btn calls

    *i like a bigger bet $40-$45 on the flop because no one is folding a flush draw or Qx for one bet. By betting 30 you are giving them 3:1 a pretty good price for a flush draw.

    On the turn ($148) :2s :7d :Qs :QC:
    MP (covers) ?
    Co ($335)
    BTN ($210)

    Here if they have trips they are not folding, if they have a flush draw you don't want them to fold. I think $75 is good. I wouldn't go big. I may go like $50 and hope they raise.

    If you had a FD here what would your bet size be? Whatever that sizing is you want your set to be the same sizing.

    I pretty much agree with everything you said here. I guess we could check turn here once in a while for balance, but I am usually aggressive OTT so I feel like betting is a balanced strategy. I could throw in a few check here OTT though.
  • kageykagey Red Chipper, KINGOFTAGS Posts: 2,100 ✭✭✭✭✭
    My guess is you don't know what your perceived image is and hence don't know how to evaluate opponents properly.

    Why would you make this guess? I can't know exactly what these 2 opponents are thinking, but I have been playing with them for a few hours.

    @Steve Jones
    after a couple of hours, I know exactly what my opponents think of me.
    I make it a habit to create an image that will work best at my table. (you should too)
    my profit comes from knowing what their ranges are - and remembering what hands I showed down that has helped create my image. (how many pots I entered and how many 3-bets I have made also contribute to my image)
    I have been bombing over limpers in late position for $15-$20 pre flop the whole time. These guys were making comments about that to each other. So my guess is they are thinking I am playing TAG or a bit LAG.

    your guess would be wrong. Bet sizings do not contribute to the TAG or LAG image.
    TAG = Tight Aggressive
    LAG = Loose Aggressive
    It's the hands that you hold/showdown that create that image.

    If you're "bombing over limpers in late position for 15-20 pre-flop" that has nothing to do with your range. But it does speak to your strategy.
    BTW - I open 20-30 pre in our ⅓ game and I hardly call that "bombing"
    I didn't want to write a huge OP because I just wanted to post the hand, but after your comments I guess you needed an explanation.
    consider reading "Hand Histories: Why and How"
    To get strong, valuable replies that will help you improve your game - your post should provide all essential information.
    Also Ed Miller, who is an expert writer and poker coach uses the terms TAG, and LAG all the time. It is an easy way to describe a style of play.
    Ed Miller has moved on to Fantasy Sports... his poker parlance is as appropriate as quoting Caro, Brunson or Moneymaker.
    TAG or LAG gives us an idea for players' range... but it doesn't offer any indication as to how often they bluff or steal pots. What's more important: knowing how a player plays his range? or just knowing what his range may be?
    I never used the word fish in my post, and in your reply you said that I did.
    the second sentence in your OP says you did...
    Sunday night, a bunch of rec fishy type players at the table.

    While I appreciate constructive dialogue, and I hope I get opposing views so I can learn, your post seems more like you just want to insult and prove that you know more than everyone else.
    I'm trying to help you understand that your image is probably one of a value-heavy player... meaning that when you bet, you've got value. So when you bet a board of Q27Q.... and I'm also a value-heavy player, I'm putting you on a Q at the very minimum. And if I play tight AND I'm valu-heavy.... I'm never chasing a flush on this board as you may have 77 or 22.
    You were asking about bet sizing. But that's the wrong question to ask.
    You need to consider what your opponents have (their range) and what they would think you have... it doesn't seem to me that you have.

    Do yourself a favor: go to Flopzilla and create a range for opponents that call an EP open of $11. Then put in the board up to the turn.
    How many hands to they have that they could call any bet on the turn?
    It's not a lot. And if you discount all the QX hands by ½ (because it's rare that players have a Q when the board has two of them) ... you'll find there's not much left.

    If my frank posts insult you... well, I can't do anything about that.
    But if you read my posts for it's content... I think you will find them helpful.
  • SicSemperSicSemper Red Chipper Posts: 89 ✭✭
    persuadeo wrote: »
    This is a horrible card for your line, as it takes away combinations of what you are repping and slows down many of your bluffs.

    This is a pretty fun analysis because it's so counterintuitive to what I would have thought, but I guess I'm not quite getting this part of it. Yes, it slims down the possible queen combos hero could be holding (and also reduces the combos of queens villains can hold that you'd want to target), but overall, with a range that should be perceived to be fairly wide, doesn't a bet here protect our bluffs in these rare times we have massive value?

    If I have your argument right, it's that because we're repping a lot of top pair on the flop, we can't get worse hands to come along with a bet here. But I'm not quite sussing out why this isn't a good bluff card for us the many, many times we aren't nutted . (Assuming we're heads up when bluffing the second queen most times and not, as we are here, MW)

  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 16
    My initial analysis in this hand, as I said to jake above, is overstated as I seem to have gotten the action wrong.

    I supported the smaller bet idea in a later post.

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