Flop 3betting range too unbalanced?

Danny MDanny M Red Chipper Posts: 353 ✭✭✭
edited February 2018 in PRO Product Discussion
$1/2 200bb effective
Let's say hero is Button with XxXx
Hero raises $6. SB calls.
($14) Flop :9c :8c :7h
SB checks. Hero bets $10.
SB raises $30.
Hero reraises $75.
Villain will raise overpairs+ for value and OESD or better as a bluff...
If our value 3bets are 2pair+ or sets+...
What hands are we 3betting as bluffs to be balanced on a 2:1 ratio or should we be closer to 1:2 as the bet size is much larger?

Comments

  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
    All TcX? AhTh? 7cXc seems like plenty of hands to be balanced with. Idk if vilain is raising over pairs. Most over pairs would 3 bet preflop. He himself will have similar range being 2 pairs, sets, combo draws.

    I may play hands like 87, 97, 76, 86 a little slow. Fast play sets, 98, and club+sd. Naked flush draw even Ac2c im probably checking back.
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭✭
    Adding onto what @Austin wrote: V has range advantage here, so a check on the flop would actually be my default for more most of my hands. I'd only default to betting hands that, were V to raise, I'd have an easy decision (i.e., fold or not).
  • Danny MDanny M Red Chipper Posts: 353 ✭✭✭
    edited February 2018
    I think checking our nuttish hands like sets and straights on 3 straight 2 flush boards is a huge mistake... so many bad cards can come that is going to slow down or kill the action unless someone is getting coolered set over set flush over flush or straight over straight... any 5 6 T J or club with 2 cards to come... is 98 or even 77 going to pay off 2 streets on Tc9c8c7h turn and non board pairing riv?

    Sure check our overpairs JJ+ and check 99 or JcTc with some frequency but default cbet
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭✭
    @Danny M: Are you suggesting that, say, KK is a "nuttish hand"?

    I also didn't suggest checking nuttish hands (e.g., a set). I suggested checking hands that struggle when pressured with a raise... such as KK. And I have far more hands that have equity but that would be pressured with a raise than I do hands that are nuttish or easy-to-fold when raised. It's the easier-to-play hands (i.e., sets and air) that I cbetting with a high frequency and all the other ones that I am cbetting with a low frequency.

    Remember, if V bricks and checks again on the turn, you can turn a good chunk of those hands into delayed cbets.
  • Adam WheelerAdam Wheeler Red Chipper Posts: 2,654 ✭✭✭✭
    Adding onto what @Austin wrote: V has range advantage here

    I completely disagree here.
  • Adam WheelerAdam Wheeler Red Chipper Posts: 2,654 ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2018
    Adding onto what @Austin wrote: V has range advantage here

    I completely disagree here.

    What nuts do he have that we don't ?
  • Danny MDanny M Red Chipper Posts: 353 ✭✭✭
    @moishetreats we are talking about hands we 3bet flop with... more specifically sets and straights... I mention this in the top of my response
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭✭
    Danny M wrote: »
    @moishetreats we are talking about hands we 3bet flop with... more specifically sets and straights... I mention this in the top of my response

    There have been two separate conversations going on here. One was about whether or not betting on the flop was preferred; I have been focusing on those.

    As for 3betting the flop, you'll note that I agreed with @Austin.
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭✭
    Adding onto what @Austin wrote: V has range advantage here

    I completely disagree here.

    What nuts do he have that we don't ?

    I think that we've all had this discussion before: https://forum.redchippoker.com/discussion/comment/71521#Comment_71521. I don't want to derail this thread more than I fear that I have already.

    Briefly, because V would most likely have 3bet hands like AA, KK, QQ, etc., they are LESS likely to be in his hand than in ours. So, V's nutted hands form a higher percentage of his entire holdings than ours. Obviously, this is VERY player-dependent, both on Hero and on V and on their open raising and BB defending ranges, respectfully. As a default, though, I'll stand by my argument.

    @Danny M: Yes, you should certainly note that my assertion that V has range advantage is not universally held on this forum; in fact, it might generally decried. So, take it for whatever you think it's worth. And, if you also disagree about V having range advantage, then feel free to also disregard my comments about checking back a lot on the flop -- my suggestion for a flop check is predicated on my belief of Hero's range disadvantage.

    @Adam Wheeler: Thanks for making sure that OP gets both sides of the debate!
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
    @adam @moishetreats

    Range advantage plays in btns favor here as the opener vs a flat call by SB. Sb range should be pretty tight here. Maybe he has nut straight but not many 65 hands. Btn can have 65o all combos and SB only 65s.
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭✭
    Austin wrote: »
    @adam @moishetreats

    Range advantage plays in btns favor here as the opener vs a flat call by SB. Sb range should be pretty tight here. Maybe he has nut straight but not many 65 hands. Btn can have 65o all combos and SB only 65s.

    Like I wrote, it's also V-dependent. I see blinds calling light because "they have money invested", thus opening their range to hands like 65 and even T6.

    That being said, if V has a tight range, then you have take out hands like QJo, K6s, etc. from SB's calling range -- hands that could very well be in Hero's pre-flop raising range -- further giving V range advantage.

    Let's do this: if we want to keep discussing and debating range advantage (which I'm happy to do), then start a new thread (unless @Danny M wants us to continue here).

    I'm only adding an additional comment because of the certainty with which I read @Austin's post: I might be wrong, but I disagree here, and I think that OP should at least have both sides of the argument.
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Austin wrote: »
    @adam @moishetreats

    Range advantage plays in btns favor here as the opener vs a flat call by SB. Sb range should be pretty tight here. Maybe he has nut straight but not many 65 hands. Btn can have 65o all combos and SB only 65s.

    Like I wrote, it's also V-dependent. I see blinds calling light because "they have money invested", thus opening their range to hands like 65 and even T6.

    That being said, if V has a tight range, then you have take out hands like QJo, K6s, etc. from SB's calling range -- hands that could very well be in Hero's pre-flop raising range -- further giving V range advantage.

    Let's do this: if we want to keep discussing and debating range advantage (which I'm happy to do), then start a new thread (unless @Danny M wants us to continue here).

    I'm only adding an additional comment because of the certainty with which I read @Austin's post: I might be wrong, but I disagree here, and I think that OP should at least have both sides of the argument.

    Hero has all nutted hands
    V has some nutted hands

    I think your thinking if range advantage as overall equity and not board coverage.
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2018
    I started a new thread to move the range discussion off of here so that OP can get his thread back. @Austin, @Adam Wheeler, and @Ninjah (I am adding you, @Ninjah, since I recall you being in @Austin's and @Adam Wheeler's boat on a previous thread) -- I would love to hear your thoughts there and get your input --and, of course, anyone else!!

Leave a Comment

BoldItalicStrikethroughOrdered listUnordered list
Emoji
Image
Align leftAlign centerAlign rightToggle HTML viewToggle full pageToggle lights
Drop image/file