Home Game, called out for playing to tight & not giving action

Million_Dolla_SpotMillion_Dolla_Spot Red Chipper Posts: 19 ✭✭
Playing TAG in Home Game

Cliffs
-Home Games
-Accused of not paying enough hands and giving action to players who are stuck multiple buy ins
-Have played regularly with the group for 4 years
-Winning player of +20/bb per hour in 1/1 NL game & 10/bb per hour in 1/2 NL
-rake free

I play in a weekly and monthly home game with two different groups of players. One game is a 1-1 NL and the other is a 1-2 NL. The games are both very different with the smaller stakes game getting lots of limpets preflop and passive play there after. Ok average 3k. The 1-2 game is a very aggressive game that gets 4-5k on the table every week.

This past weekend, comments were made about how tight of a player I was and that I don’t play many hands from both groups. When I do enter pots, I come in for a minimum of double the average open and still get 3-5 callers as people want to gamble. Throughout the night, my open sizes go up to thin the field.

After putting in a considerable amount of time studying the game (forums, books, videos) in the past 15 months, I look at the game differently. From ranges, position, chip stacks, tilt and tells.
This past weekend, I was contacted by 2 separate people from the 1-1Nl game who were upset and suggested I play more hands for the good of the game. When I told both of them I was “card dead” they did not believe me and one said, “when you go up money, you just sit on it. This is not a casino and you should play more hands as others get upset when you don’t give action.” Another player said, that I needed to play some garbage hands to put money into pots. Both players have been regulars from day 1.

While I can see where they are both coming form, is this a valid point? Yes, I have narrowed my overall range of hands, open 8-10x the BB preflop and target the dead money. Trying to play an optimal strategy from my studies. What tends to happen is the fish and the people down heaps give me action with my large opening raises. This has resulted in the larger win rates.

Is there anything different I should be doing other than playing my own game? My thoughts are, play your cards how & when you want to play them.

Thank you for your advice and suggestions.

Comments

  • NinjahNinjah Red Chipper Posts: 1,047 ✭✭✭✭
    Is there a risk if you not being invited back by the host because of this?

    How important is the money to you?

    Ultimately you should play to win but you may want to find ways to mix it up occasionally if there's a risk if you not being invited back.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,315 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Yeah you sound a little clueless about how free association works. You're calling some people trying to have fun "fish" and are solely focused on taking their Friday fun money.

    What I think should happen is that they should bar you. Everyone will benefit from this. You'll learn something about how society works and move on to the tougher, bigger games where you belong, and they will have their little gambling club back.
  • Million_Dolla_SpotMillion_Dolla_Spot Red Chipper Posts: 19 ✭✭
    Very good questions.
    There is 0 risk of being invited back. I am one of the regular hosts and we always have enough players for at least 1 if not 2 tables.

    At the end of the day, I am a competitive person and play to win. My plan is to mix it up a little more going forward and limp in a few spots with a wide range. Those type of hands have gotten me in trouble in the past and that is why I have opted to fold.

    Thanks for the feedback
  • Million_Dolla_SpotMillion_Dolla_Spot Red Chipper Posts: 19 ✭✭
    persuadeo wrote: »
    Yeah you sound a little clueless about how free association works. You're calling some people trying to have fun "fish" and are solely focused on taking their Friday fun money.

    What I think should happen is that they should bar you. Everyone will benefit from this. You'll learn something about how society works and move on to the tougher, bigger games where you belong, and they will have their little gambling club back.

    Even though a very harsh comment, I appreciate your feedback and would not have expected these coming from you a well respected member of the community. The players are there to have fun, some are in for 1k at the night and others for $60”. Your comment on “free association” and taking players “fun money” does not register with me. Each of the players plays a few times (6-10) per year at the casino if not monthly. I do straddle in the game to keep it lively and encourage & participate in splash/bomb pots on the hour and 1/2 hour along with props. The fish comment is described as a player who playes to most every hand and calls any flop bet. I should have referred to as a poor player. I play the game for entertainment and to win. If your not playing to win, what do you play for?
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,315 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Well as you reveal more details, such as:

    - you're a host.
    - the fish are more experienced than most home gamers
    - you straddle and participate in bomb pots,

    then the reasons for their dissatisfaction become less reasonable and you seem to have less to worry about.

    Paint a fuller story, like a good hand history, and you'll get more precise answers.

    GL.
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,389 ✭✭✭✭
    A fair discussion here.

    1) Remember that some people play poker primarily to have fun (not you!). And it seems that creating a fun poker experience is the central if not primary goal of this group -- or at least of a lot people in it. Don't get me wrong, you don't have to play like a drunken idiot every time. But, if people are there to have fun, then that usually means giving and getting action. So, yeah, I can see why people would be upset.

    2) I would use this game as a way to experiment with different plays. Have you been looking to try 3betting more? Or check-raising the turn without nutted hands or massive draws? Or practicing a strategy where you flat-call 3bets with your entire pre-flop raise range? This sounds like a GREAT place to practice: good competition, lower stakes, and it "loosens" you up.
    --One specific suggestion: practice calling down just a little bit lighter (no, not for your stack, of course) and/or bluffing just a hair more often. It won't affect your margins too much; you'll gain experience learning how players react; and it will help with the "image" that is being sought.

    3) Find another game? (No, I don't recommend this option.)

    The flip side is that this could just be sour grapes: it might have nothing to do with you being too "tight". It could be that you are winning "too often". Rather than saying, "Yo', bro', you gotta dump some money back in", they can suggest that you "loosen up", which would almost inevitably lead to you dumping some money back in... Could be a subconscious code.

    In any case, it sounds like this is a game that you want to keep playing in. So, I'd look first to the second suggestion as a way to make it work.

  • SullySully Red Chipper Posts: 676 ✭✭✭
    I'm assuming you bluff once in awhile. Show one every now and then

    I have never, in 3 years at the casino, shown my hand.

    I have just started playing in a very big home game. The first time I played I showed a bluff and another hand where a very large source of money in the game asked me if I would if he folded and I did.

    IMO you gotta adjust to your environment. You do not want action players griping about you, whether earned or not. It's no fun and not good for the bottom line
  • Million_Dolla_SpotMillion_Dolla_Spot Red Chipper Posts: 19 ✭✭
    persuadeo wrote: »
    Well as you reveal more details, such as:

    - you're a host.
    - the fish are more experienced than most home gamers
    - you straddle and participate in bomb pots,

    then the reasons for their dissatisfaction become less reasonable and you seem to have less to worry about.

    Paint a fuller story, like a good hand history, and you'll get more precise answers.

    GL.

    I apologize for not being more descriptive. It has been on my mind and I typed it up on my break at work. I can see where i could be viewed as a savage :) The 2 players have been on a downswing over the past 6-8 sessions and have voiced being tilted lately. Thank you for your content and reply.
    A fair discussion here.

    1) Remember that some people play poker primarily to have fun (not you!). And it seems that creating a fun poker experience is the central if not primary goal of this group -- or at least of a lot people in it. Don't get me wrong, you don't have to play like a drunken idiot every time. But, if people are there to have fun, then that usually means giving and getting action. So, yeah, I can see why people would be upset.

    2) I would use this game as a way to experiment with different plays. Have you been looking to try 3betting more? Or check-raising the turn without nutted hands or massive draws? Or practicing a strategy where you flat-call 3bets with your entire pre-flop raise range? This sounds like a GREAT place to practice: good competition, lower stakes, and it "loosens" you up.
    --One specific suggestion: practice calling down just a little bit lighter (no, not for your stack, of course) and/or bluffing just a hair more often. It won't affect your margins too much; you'll gain experience learning how players react; and it will help with the "image" that is being sought.

    3) Find another game? (No, I don't recommend this option.)

    The flip side is that this could just be sour grapes: it might have nothing to do with you being too "tight". It could be that you are winning "too often". Rather than saying, "Yo', bro', you gotta dump some money back in", they can suggest that you "loosen up", which would almost inevitably lead to you dumping some money back in... Could be a subconscious code.

    In any case, it sounds like this is a game that you want to keep playing in. So, I'd look first to the second suggestion as a way to make it work.

    Thanks for the suggestions. I will implement them in the next game and try some new techniques. I have been a Limit Holdem player for a long time. When I started playing NL with the 1-1 group, I would buy in for the minimum and my only move was to go ALL IN when I had Ace paint or pocket pair giving me w very wild image. After studying and learning fundamentals from this site and others, my game has done a 180 for the good. Thank you all content and analysis.
    Sully wrote: »
    I'm assuming you bluff once in awhile. Show one every now and then

    I have never, in 3 years at the casino, shown my hand.

    I have just started playing in a very big home game. The first time I played I showed a bluff and another hand where a very large source of money in the game asked me if I would if he folded and I did.

    IMO you gotta adjust to your environment. You do not want action players griping about you, whether earned or not. It's no fun and not good for the bottom line

    Thank you for the advice.
  • jfarrow13jfarrow13 Red Chipper Posts: 1,037 ✭✭✭
    Lol if your as tight as you say, anytime you raise I’d just fold. How about you offer them this hot tip. “Hey, if you think I don’t play enough hands and only play good hands....maybe don’t call?” I play a home game with a guy like this, like it’s so easy to beat him. Oh, he raised in front of me? Snap fold KQ. Snap call 66, set mine, bet or raise any low board if he small C-bets cause he missed his overs. It’s amazing to me that he ever makes money. In my exerience he a consistent small winner, but it’s easy to just take small chunks of his stack. He just plays good cards...cool. Don’t give him action.
  • EazzyEazzy Red Chipper Posts: 780 ✭✭✭
    `I was once invited to a union Friday night game 1-2 by a neighbor of mine ,,it was very soft no rake game. He informed after the game that they did not want me back because I raised too much preflop, and was not fun to play against. I was less then $200 up at the end of the evening..

    In retrospect I think I should have made adjustments to my game.

    I think in the old poker book Jacoby on Poker, (a very very dated book...from the 1950's)., he does talk about a 7 card stud game in New York that he has to play looser or he would not be welcome there.

    I think part of playing poker, is realizing that you have to be you own public relations man. In AC I go out of my way to foster good relations with most of the regulars and despite being known as a tough tight player, am usually welcomed at the table.. I see other tagy regulars, who berate the games, act obnoxious and who the regulars give little action to and complain a lot about them.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,093 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 7
    Just drop the "card dead" line, it never works even if true. Sounds lame.

    If you actually are a good player, then I'm sure you can find a way to play a similar EV game, albeit with more variance, by playing more hands. Are you really maximizing thin value? Are you semi-bluffing crazily? Are you raising the right hands the right amounts to based on the number and types of players in the hand vs. the types of hands you're likely to hit? I would ignore the "garbage hands" comment, that's just dumb. 84o is garbage, 86s is not. Focus on the thinner hands and pushing smaller edges harder. Figure out when you can get heads up and when you can't. Figure out who's willing to shove their stack in there and who isn't. Be the one shoving with the flush draw, not so much calling with one. Do the Doyle Brunson thing and freeroll with winnings. If you're up $200, then gamble it up some time for $200 with 40% equity.
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 4,380 ✭✭✭✭
    With such large multiway pots and deep stacks how are you playing hands like 53s, 54s, T9o, etc. I think you can limp these hands from any position in these home games and show a profit with a 30 SPR. 30% of hands or so should be a good rate of you giving action.

    It sounds like your in preflop wars and leaving a lot of money on the table and building a bad image for your home games. Maybe start polarizing some of your 3bets 74s, 53s, etc and go to war with them. Embrace postflop.

    Give them what they ask for and double your win rate... They asked for it.
  • Million_Dolla_SpotMillion_Dolla_Spot Red Chipper Posts: 19 ✭✭
    Austin wrote: »
    With such large multiway pots and deep stacks how are you playing hands like 53s, 54s, T9o, etc. I think you can limp these hands from any position in these home games and show a profit with a 30 SPR. 30% of hands or so should be a good rate of you giving action.

    It sounds like your in preflop wars and leaving a lot of money on the table and building a bad image for your home games. Maybe start polarizing some of your 3bets 74s, 53s, etc and go to war with them. Embrace postflop.

    Give them what they ask for and double your win rate... They asked for it.

    Very good advice. I believe it to be a combination of sour grapes, not connecting on my playable hands over the 5 hour session and being more disciplined. I do open up and play any 2 suited gappers + and other non suited connectors. In fact the 2 people who advised of my tight play, I was involved in at least 3 hands each heads up with where I won 2 of 3 when their high cards did not connect. Going forward I will show down more hands that missed instead of mucking to help my table image.

    Thank you all for the advice and comments. Ok to lock this thread up
  • jfarrow13jfarrow13 Red Chipper Posts: 1,037 ✭✭✭
    3 bet trash once (k3o) or similar. If they all fold show it (ha). If the don't fold and however the hand ends, show it and laugh "welp, guess I better give up on this bluff". They will remember this.
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 4,380 ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 9
    I do open up and play any 2 suited gappers + and other non suited connectors


    aijwnbqpwp1p.png

    If what your saying is true, thats almost 30% of hands. They should be complaining if your playing roughly 2 out 7 hands. Seems like enough action without being called a nit.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,093 ✭✭✭✭✭
    jfarrow13 wrote: »
    show it and laugh "well, guess I better give up on this bluff". They will remember this.

    This is a good point. You get more mileage than you might think by bluffing just once or twice. They'll remember it for a long time. So you don't actually have to bluff very often to get people to be suspicious of you. People tend to generalize and assume you play the same way in the same situation forever.

  • The MuleThe Mule Red Chipper Posts: 763 ✭✭✭
    Apologies if this is obvious to most, but what is it about nits that makes them undesirable at a home game ?

    Is it because they are generally taking money out of the game ?
    Is it because they are occupying the chair a more gambly player could take ?
    Is it because their style is annoying to play against ?
    Other ?

    So are you happy to play a tight, losing player ? Happy to have a tight guy if you don’t have enough players ?
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,093 ✭✭✭✭✭
    For one thing, they usually have a personality to match, i.e. lame and boring :) Unless they're the stats master, then it's even worse.
  • jfarrow13jfarrow13 Red Chipper Posts: 1,037 ✭✭✭
    I don't mind the NITs. I think they are super easy to play against. People hate them because generally, once they get some chips, you ain't getting them back because it's so rare for them to be willing to play big pots without the nuts. So even if you do "cooler" them, you aren't gonna stack them cause they just won't put that much money in. And home games, dealing (at least in mine) is painfully slow due to drinking, talking, and generally the fact that they are there to shoot the sh*t and see their buddies, not play cards. So the one nitty dude in my games rarely takes my money, but often takes theirs. Pre-flop hand selection, wow what discipline and skill. Opponents refusing to fold to his x7 raise when they limp with :9D: :8D: and then C/c or C/f after bricking...it's like people still play tables games at casino's knowing it's a losing proposition, they are just in it for the thrill of the flop.

    In fact, I think I'm one of the only plays who can stack him because he is willing to call me down with over pairs on wet boards knowing I'm not afraid to 2x pot him with a draw cause I think he will fold over pairs. It's fun.
  • Million_Dolla_SpotMillion_Dolla_Spot Red Chipper Posts: 19 ✭✭
    jeffnc wrote: »
    For one thing, they usually have a personality to match, i.e. lame and boring :) Unless they're the stats master, then it's even worse.

    I can assure you this is not the case with me. Things I personally do to keep the game fun include splash/bomb pots on the hour and to start the game, 7-2 side pot (I have lost countless times going for the sidepot, engaging and encouraging props, red/black, suites, even/odd, straddles/doubler&triple stadles. If fact there are 4 of us that do this every game. I even offer to take the open suits when less then 4 people are in. It’s a good group of guys/girls having a fun evening over some drinks and friendly jabs at each other all in good fun.

    After looking at the situation closer, I am going to take the advice of others and show down some garbage hands, show some 7-2 bluffs gone wrong. It was one those nights where cards were poor and it would not have hurt to show down some garbage hands.
    The main vocal person has been on a severe downswing of late. After averaging in the upper $40/hr in the 1/1 & 1/2 game in 2017, has lost numerous sessions in a row, some in brutal fashion. I have talking with him in length since this happen and offered him some advice on getting on the right track and mindset. All is well with the group with the next game scheduled in a few weeks.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,093 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 14
    I can assure you this is not the case with me.

    Yeah, didn't mean to say it was you. Sounds like you're doing some good things. colldav was asking about nits in general.

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