1-2-3 with KJo + line / sizing check?

AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,486 ✭✭✭✭✭
Table has been playing weak passive around 20/7 stats. Despite not being a good table based on their preflop hand selections, post flop their hands are very face up.

Effective six handed as a couple people have taken a break.

EP ($120) calls $3
Hero ($400) :Kd :Jc Isolates to $15
BTN ($210) calls
blinds fold
EP calls

Flop ($44+$6) :8d :6c :2s
EP checks
Hero bets $35
BTN calls
EP folds

turn ($114) :8d :6c :2s :Kh
check x2

River ($114) :8d :6c :2s :Kh :6D:
Hero bets $55
BTN calls

On the flop I went with a larger sizing trying to represent an over pair. I also think they have quite a bit of small pairs and their range that can fold to a larger sizing. I think besides PP I can get hands like AT-AK to fold which have me beat. Pretty dry board overall and I think a lot of their ranges are SCs, PP, suited broadways, and Axs. They are not hitting this board very hard.

On the turn it is possible to run into a set here some of the time. Villain called the flop bet pretty quickly so I was some what worried. I decided based on how fast he called and he is one of the better players at the table I wanted to go for a bet - check - bet line. If he bets large on the turn I may fold. If he bets smallish (1/2 pot) I am likely to call and evaluate the river. The fact that he checked I took sets out of his range and was thinking he has A8s, 87s, 98s, 77, 99-JJ, etc.

On the river I knew I had the best hand but wanted to get value. I thought half pot was the best bet given the weak table dynamics. I thought about choosing a large bet and putting KJ (TP) into a poled range, but I think villain would fold to a $100 bet. I think I could go larger $65-$75 and still get called some of the time.

I am posting this hand to show player pool tendencies to have wider ranges, higher fold to cbet on certain textures, and unwillingness to fight back, a lot of which is due to their stack sizes. I'm way less likely to bet a flop such as Qh8h7d.

Comments

  • RoblivionRoblivion WisconsinRed Chipper Posts: 230 ✭✭✭
    I think you can bet smaller on this flop, like half pot or so. The player type described will respond to most sizes similarly on this board and you can get a better price.

    Other than that, it seems like a good line. May be tough to get called by worse on the turn.
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,486 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Roblivion wrote: »
    I think you can bet smaller on this flop, like half pot or so. The player type described will respond to most sizes similarly on this board and you can get a better price.

    Other than that, it seems like a good line. May be tough to get called by worse on the turn.

    I thought about smaller sizing on the float, but figure a hand like 55 would peel once where for 75%+ cbet he folds flop. If i go smaller i have to be willing to barrel on more turns. Didn't feel like doing that lol... Lazyness? Maybe.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 1,699 ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 12
    Austin wrote: »
    Flop ($44+$6) :8d :6c :2s
    EP checks
    Hero bets $35
    BTN calls
    EP folds
    [...]
    On the flop I went with a larger sizing trying to represent an over pair. I also think they have quite a bit of small pairs and their range that can fold to a larger sizing. I think besides PP I can get hands like AT-AK to fold which have me beat. Pretty dry board overall and I think a lot of their ranges are SCs, PP, suited broadways, and Axs. They are not hitting this board very hard.

    35$ into 50$ a large sizing ?? Sorry, it is not at all a large bet which would polarized your range - and rep an overpairs (pole your value to mostly overpairs, and some sets). Go near the pot, pot bet, or overbet... but a 70% doesn't look a large sizing - or does your table usually c-bet very cheap (obviously less than half pot bet) ?

    Casually so c-betting also will change your c-bet range. I might not exclude AX and KX or your c-bet range if you don't pole it more.
    (But then, if you c-bet pole, I don't think KJo is the best candidate as a bluff)


    Edit: re-thinking it, I'm not sure KJo is a hand to c-bet bluff with at all. If we start c-betting that low - as it means we are c-betting at least KJ+, ATo+, plus others) - means we are c-betting unbalanced with too many bluff combos.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 1,699 ✭✭✭✭
    Austin wrote: »
    On the turn it is possible to run into a set here some of the time. Villain called the flop bet pretty quickly so I was some what worried. I decided based on how fast he called and he is one of the better players at the table I wanted to go for a bet - check - bet line. If he bets large on the turn I may fold. If he bets smallish (1/2 pot) I am likely to call and evaluate the river. The fact that he checked I took sets out of his range and was thinking he has A8s, 87s, 98s, 77, 99-JJ, etc.
    I'd not take the quick call as a big tell. Except if Villain is often taking his time and obviously is very happy to play this hand / board.

    Furthermore, since your c-bet wasn't pole (imho, see up), I think Villain has a ton of pairs he could stab with. For value, seeing your c-betting/check behind (AT, AJ, AQ, QJ, QT, etc.) or turning his hands into a bluff seeing you now unhappy (like you holding 99-QQ).
    So if he bets, I'd not fold TP here; I'd rather see him betting with many combos we beat. I'd use a large bet sizing as a tell ONLY if he has a bet sizing pattern I've noticed before - which we don't know base on your info.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 1,699 ✭✭✭✭
    Austin wrote: »

    River ($114) :8d :6c :2s :Kh :6D:
    Hero bets $55
    BTN calls

    On the river I knew I had the best hand but wanted to get value.
    If Villains are playing face up and aren't smart, I'm ok with it. Easy bet/fold.

    But do you bet this river against a better / smart Villain ?
  • NinjahNinjah Red Chipper Posts: 1,085 ✭✭✭✭
    Red wrote: »
    Austin wrote: »
    Flop ($44+$6) :8d :6c :2s
    EP checks
    Hero bets $35
    BTN calls
    EP folds
    [...]
    On the flop I went with a larger sizing trying to represent an over pair. I also think they have quite a bit of small pairs and their range that can fold to a larger sizing. I think besides PP I can get hands like AT-AK to fold which have me beat. Pretty dry board overall and I think a lot of their ranges are SCs, PP, suited broadways, and Axs. They are not hitting this board very hard.

    35$ into 50$ a large sizing ?? Sorry, it is not at all a large bet which would polarized your range - and rep an overpairs (pole your value to mostly overpairs, and some sets). Go near the pot, pot bet, or overbet... but a 70% doesn't look a large sizing - or does your table usually c-bet very cheap (obviously less than half pot bet) ?

    Casually so c-betting also will change your c-bet range. I might not exclude AX and KX or your c-bet range if you don't pole it more.
    (But then, if you c-bet pole, I don't think KJo is the best candidate as a bluff)


    Edit: re-thinking it, I'm not sure KJo is a hand to c-bet bluff with at all. If we start c-betting that low - as it means we are c-betting at least KJ+, ATo+, plus others) - means we are c-betting unbalanced with too many bluff combos.

    70% PSB is about the edge of the threshold to where you start polarizing yourself and if @Austin is betting KJo here (which is fine), then he has a ton of air on this board and should be betting smaller on the flop to allow himself and his opponent to continue with a wider range. This will also give him the opportunity to put more pressure on his opponent on appropriate turn cards such as the one that landed. Potting or overbetting this flop is a recipe for a poor hand. Our range cannot support such an action.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 1,699 ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 12
    Ninjah wrote: »
    70% PSB is about the edge of the threshold to where you start polarizing yourself
    Maybe it's cultural / local then ?
    Where I played last - Prague, Czech Rep. - , there is a natural high c-betting % among players (sometimes near 100% ) and usually between 1/2 and 2/3 pot depending on the player. Hence, to me, a 70% pot size c-bet isn't polarizing the range much - EXCEPT if c-better is known to c-bet rarely or to c-bet only at 50% pot (which we can't know here).
    Ninjah wrote: »
    Potting or overbetting this flop is a recipe for a poor hand. Our range cannot support such an action.
    Totally agree tho. This flop doesn't hit our range as much as BU's calling range.
    I wasn't advocating to pot bet, I wanted more to emphasy that it should be bet more to polarize our range as, to me, a 70% pot bet doesn't send a pole message to Villain (don't find more FE than with a 50% or 40% pot size bet)
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 1,699 ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 12
    Ninjah wrote: »
    [...] and if @Austin is betting KJo here (which is fine), then he has a ton of air on this board and should be betting smaller on the flop to allow himself and his opponent to continue with a wider range. This will also give him the opportunity to put more pressure on his opponent on appropriate turn cards such as the one that landed. Potting or overbetting this flop is a recipe for a poor hand. Our range cannot support such an action.

    So, are you saying that he should have bet smaller, right ?

    (That's what I tried to say up: KJo doesn't belong as bluff to a pole range as there are better candidates; or, which wasn't explicit in my post, @Austin should c-bet smaller in a way to widen his c-bet range.)
  • NinjahNinjah Red Chipper Posts: 1,085 ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 12
    @Red yes I'm betting here but I'm going much smaller so that I can bet more of my range. In low stakes games 1/2 to 2/3 pot is the "standard" because most players have no idea of how ranges and sizing correlate to one another which is why you see it so often. Outside of player exploitation, such as betting larger against a calling station, our sizing needs to be tied to our range. Generally speaking, the wider the range, the smaller the bet should be.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 1,699 ✭✭✭✭
    So we agree :)
  • EazzyEazzy Red Chipper Posts: 915 ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 12
    I agree with Austin. You don't need to be worrying about having too many bluffs in your range. You don't have to worry that betting pot, or big...looks like a polarized range.

    Wet noodles are looking at their hands, not thinking about your range. Until I see different, I'm assuming they are not going to exploit bet tells unless they are completely obvious...Betting 3/4 to pot in a 3 way pot is not completely obvious... I doubt these players float "big bets" with AK reasoning, it must be a polarized range. I

    Thus I like the bet big on flop, give up if nothing changes on the turn line.

    And of course checking the turn is also exploitable....but rarely exploited by 2nd pair type hands which a large part of their range is.

    In fact I might look for other exploit lines against players who play this face up. Checking the flop, and attacking a small bet with a check raise, or betting the turn and river if the flop checks through type thing.
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,486 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I stated larger sizing around 75% pot because there is a $6 drop once we see a flop. i do not count that as part of the pot. Im betting $35 into $44 which is almost 80% pot. Standard would likely be around the $25 range, around half pot.

    KJ is near bottom of my range in terms of equity with this board. I have no bd draw and other parts of my range like ace high have some showdown value. SCs usually have some type of draw so i do view this as a poled cbet. I don't think just because i bet KJ i have to bet A10+.

    In general im more so betting the texture cause almost everyone will have air on this board. I'm not really worried about my range so much or a player trying to exploit my range having air here. Usuallu tendency is first one to bet wins the pot. I don't see them floating very often or raising to rebluff.

    In general I agree. Had the flop been 872 i probably wouldn't bet or if I do bet then it would be smaller sizing and barrel J-A.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 1,699 ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 12
    Eazzy wrote: »
    Wet noodles are looking at their hands, not thinking about your range. Until I see different, I'm assuming they are not going to exploit bet tells unless they are completely obvious...
    I agree with your conclusion in your post. But I don't like this part of it.

    Yes, looking for balanced ranges, optimal lines, combos selection, bet sizing, range advantage, pole advantage, etc. is like casting pearls before swine against a poor player.
    Against them, we could play exploitative and that's it - stomping here on an overfolding tendency.

    But that's not how you improve in the long term, and how you will be able to face better opponents who will observe us, analyze our play, play fast or slow play, raise to put us in a hell of a situation. You need to have practice that before.

    So in this exact situation, for a balanced c-bet, I'm not a big fan to c-bet KJo, and especially not to fit in a pole range.

    Also
    Eazzy wrote: »
    looks like a polarized range.
    It should not look like a pole range, it should be a pole range.

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