Bankroll Management for Cash and MTT?

DaithíDaithí Red Chipper Posts: 25 ✭✭
edited March 13 in General Concepts
Countless books and blogs have addressed this question, yet I still feel it remains unclear. That's why I'd like to ask RedChip for their opinion.

You search the net for BM and what comes up are blogs giving you the Pros and Cons for both Cash and MTTs. One relevant con to my question for MTT is higher varience than in Cash. I don't know what the consensus is for Cash but I read that around 25 or 30 buyins should be adequate. Some people would probably recommend even more. Would be interested in RedChip's recommendation.

Due to greater varience in MTTs I saw recommendation of 100 (up to 150) buyins.

This is the information you will likely be presented when in search of Bankroll Management. You'll be given info about the two and asked a question which one do you prefer. But to my astonishment I haven't seen bankroll recommendation for the scenario in which I want to play both!

Let's say I want Cash to be my bread and butter, but wanna give a fair go to MTTs as well several times a month.

So what are my options?
  • Will I have two separate bankrolls?
  • Will I have 1 bankroll?
  • Will I partition the bankroll?

Partitioning the bankroll seems viable. Ex. $1,000 bankroll. $250 (25%) reserved for MTTs and play proportionately with 100 buyins, i.e. $2.50, while the $750 is left for cash with 30buyins: i.e. NL25
However I find this limiting both what you can play in MTTs and Cash.

Perhaps the 1-bankroll scenario is better. Where I treat the $1,000 dynamically. I'd play cash games 30 buyins to 1000: i.e. NL 33 (hypothetical stake :D). And at the same time I would treat the $1,000 as my MTT bankroll as well. So I could register to $10.00 games instead of $2.50. But I will have to treat the bankroll dynamically, that is; if it shrinks I may have to step down stakes in cash games and in MTTs too in accordance with the bankroll's current state.

I just don't know!

Btw, MTTs players, do you have your satellite bankroll separate from main MTT entry bankroll?

I am really surprised that nobody has addressed this in detail.

Thanks for taking the time to read this lengthy post.

Comments

  • kageykagey Red Chipper, KINGOFTAGS Posts: 2,231 ✭✭✭✭✭
    BM is really only something pros have to do.
    And when I say "pros" - I'm talking about guys who only play poker for a living and have bills to pay on top of that.
    If you've only got 1k, my guess is that you're a "recreational player" - who plays for profit, but doesn't need the money for day-to-day expenses.
    If that's the case - it doesn't really matter how you partition your BR.
    Because odds are you have another way of generating income if you lose your entire BR.

    BM are really guidelines to help prevent the risk of ruin for pros.
    That said - a lot of pros will stash a portion of their profits for tourneys as part of their "shot-taking" BankRoll. This includes satellites and regular tourneys. It's probably less than 15% of their roll.
  • DaithíDaithí Red Chipper Posts: 25 ✭✭
    edited March 13
    Thanks for the reply!
    Yes, I am a recreational player but I don't want to have a recreational attitude :). I want that bankroll work for itself and grow and I do not want to be adding money into it. I understand that Pros are in much more precarious situation as—like you said—their only income is from playing. For that reason, I presume their BM must be on the deeper side.

    I am quite surprised that recreational players do not need BM. Without BM a player is likely to play higher games. (serious) Recreational player wants to protect his BM the same as a Pro, aside from the fact that Pro depends on it to go to work. Even as a general Gambling Good Practice is to have gambling resources separate from livelihood resources.

    I want to take my bankroll seriously and utilize it in the best possible way. This mainly involves playing the right stakes. Poker type isn't a question, as I know I wanna play both Cash and MTT.
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭✭
    I wonder, @Daithí, it you're conflating bankroll with records. A bankroll is money that is 100% set aside for poker; it's untouchable. That way, you can manage swings and/or pay for buy-ins, taking shots, etc. Of course, you should know how much money you can afford to lose while you play and learn, but you can mix it up with your regular bank accounts.

    Records are keeping a detailed chart of how much you have won and lost over how many hours, etc. THOSE, to me, are essential (not necessarily so that you can track your bottom line but really so that you can look at trends).
  • DaithíDaithí Red Chipper Posts: 25 ✭✭
    @moishetreats I am not sure I am :). If I am I will gladly listen. After all I came here to learn not to preach :).

    By "records", I understand, let's say, in PT or HEM your progress, charts....data. That of course informs you, among other things, of your performance. Without records it would be near impossible to have a combined bankroll in my opinion.

    Suppose as a recreational player, you have no BM but you have records. You see from your data how much you lost, won, etc. And gradually you keep adding funds to your play from time to time. However, this does't provide you with a healthy plan on which stakes you should stick to and play. IMO with only records and no BM you'll play all over the place.

    With BM you already know your bankroll. You can make plan on what stakes to play on. And as your bankroll changes so does your plan.

    Without BM, I might just with my hypothetical $1,000 register for a $200 MTT and see what happens, and then play NL200.
  • Dean MDean M Red Chipper Posts: 177 ✭✭✭
    Daithí wrote: »
    Thanks for the reply!
    Yes, I am a recreational player but I don't want to have a recreational attitude :). I want that bankroll work for itself and grow and I do not want to be adding money into it. I understand that Pros are in much more precarious situation as—like you said—their only income is from playing. For that reason, I presume their BM must be on the deeper side.

    You can still be a recreational player and treat poker like a business.

    However, back to @kagey 's point - bankroll is only important for Pro players. Players with another income source have no risk of ruin.

    I have another income but treat poker as a business. I play $2/$5 or sometimes smaller if that game's not running. At the end of a session I put 5 or 6 black chips in my pocket as 'seed money' for the next session. Keep $1200-1500 cash in my pocket and deposit the extra to pay bills. This way I never waste time standing in line at the cashier to buy in and the cash gives me a safety net in case I have to re-buy.

    As a side note, you'll see a lot of 'professional poker players' with a side hustle (coaching, RCP or other sites that generate income, etc.) It's not easy to maintain a proper bankroll for a decent 'poker only' income.
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭✭
    Yup, we're the terminology the same way!

    I'm still on the same side as @kagey, though. When I first started playing with any seriousness, I still only kept records. The money that I used to play was disposable income, entertainment expense, etc. So, I didn't need a bankroll. I could simply look at my records and see if I was losing, breaking even, or winning -- and by how much.

    As I committed myself to spending more time at poker, that meant factoring in the opportunity cost of NOT doing other things. And when my winrate over time showed that I could comfortably rely on poker to pay some bills -- and I picked a VERY conservative amount -- I still didn't have a bankroll. I just used my one bank account since poker was never intended to be my primary income.

    If I were to going to rely on poker for, say, 50% of my income or more, then I would absolutely have a bankroll. Why? Because I would ALWAYS need money set aside to go to work, i.e., buy-in. It's like having a job where you have to pay to show up, and that can never be depleted (you can take off the top, of course, but the bankroll needs to remain untouchable).

    Other than that, though, I haven't found any need to maintain a separate bankroll. Part of that could be because playing poker is profitable. When I was still at my losing stage (which was loooong! :) ), then it was important to me to set aside money at the beginning of the year or when other income came in that I was comfortable using to play -- and potentially lose. But, that's not a bankroll. That's an entertainment expense.

    Again, that's just my experience. I haven't found the need to insure that I have, say, 10-30 buy-ins available in cash in a separate account 24/7. That's a bankroll.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,610 ✭✭✭✭✭
    What you are talking about is budgeting and accounting.

    The heart of BRM is risk of ruin. If you plan on never putting another dollar into your bankroll if you lose it, then yes, you should practice some severe BRM as there are severe consequences to ruin.

    However, all the numbers you are quoted, 25 this and 100 that, are fairly arbitrary. There is no perfect advice because your skill edge can never be truly quantified. The higher your likely win rate, the lower your risk of ruin, nevertheless.

    Hence you will never find a satisfactory, generalized BRM answer, whether at RC or anywhere, because your highly theoretical win rate informs the number of buy ins you need to mitigate - not obviate - ruin.

    But for the recreational player, his BRM is really about his life BRM, and what he can budget. This informs his choice not to take that $1000 and put it into a $200 MTT. If he is a millionaire, he can afford to replenish that $1000, arbitrary "bankroll" every time he busts it.

    The same is for you.
  • DaithíDaithí Red Chipper Posts: 25 ✭✭
    edited March 13
    @persuadeo Yes, I agree! Btw RoR doesn't necessarily mean in every case that one has to file for personal bankruptcy to the government. This concept can also apply to a recreational player who has a Bankroll $1,500 and if he loses the bankroll it will set him off the game for 6–18 months with bills to pay, as I might have maybe $200 to spare in the odd month. In this instance I disagree with the above, indicated by some, that RoR only applies to Pros. I find that quite radical and extreme interpretation of the concept.

    @Dean M @moishetreats

    The largest poker room in the world seems to agree with my interpretation.
    "Managing a bankroll carefully is a vital skill for a successful player to learn, no matter at what level you play the game. "
    [...]
    "The term "bankroll" refers to the amount of money you set aside exclusively to play poker - for example the money you have online at PokerStars. It is separate from all the other finances in your life."
    https://pokerstarsschool.com/article/Bankroll-Management
    "I strongly recommend keeping your poker bankroll separate from your other funds. While using a portion of your winnings to buy gifts is fine, you can't grow the bankroll if you use all of the winnings for non-poker expenditures. And remember, the larger your bankroll, the easier it is to overcome the inevitable swings of bad luck."
    https://pokerstarsschool.com/article/The-Risk-of-Ruin

    "In the simplest terms, your poker bankroll is the amount of money you have set aside for poker. This doesn't include money you have in your bank account for bills and your mortgage, nor does it include any money you're expecting to get in the future. It is purely the money you are prepared to devote solely to poker playing. This is why, when you look to build a bankroll, you should start by deciding how much you are prepared to risk."
    https://cardschat.com/poker-bankroll-management.php

    That's only to mention a few. None of the sources states you must be a Pro. On the contrary, they advise it to every player irregardless of level.

    Nonetheless guys, I came here to inquire about how to maintain and upkeep 1 bankroll for Cash and MTTs (I should have mentioned on-line), you are telling me that I don't need one at all. Which to me is a road to disaster for my poker career. But fair enough, I not gonna be trying to argue and convince you. If your philosophy is that BRM is unnecessary for a recreational player who treats his poker bankroll as business with limited funding, that's fine. I am not gonna waste any more of your time to convince you otherwise. Similarly, because I see that you don't have any input on how to run BR with Cash, MTT and Satellites simultaneously, rather than convincing me that I don't need one, I won't waste my time either and instead will ask for tips the people who advocate such practice. I had presumed it was a general all-round practice in the poker world, but I now see that there are different views and philosophies in regards to BRM and as to who qualifies for it and who can benefit from utilizing it.

    Thank you for your valuable time, guys. I consider this thread solved.

  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,610 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 13
    1. You're taking their recommendations in the wrong way. They are trying to quantify the real (risk of ruin) versus the imaginary (most recreational players' replenishable bankrolls).
    2. Once you established that you have no other money for poker, your question becomes more relevant.
    3. In this case, you should take your tracked results, and enter the figures this simulator: http://pokerdope.com/poker-variance-calculator/ which will give you potential outcomes. If you don't have the right records, look at the samples provided for a spread of outcomes.
    4. But then you ask for "tips" on how to keep a bankroll, when this is really a very facetious question. The best way and really only way to keep a bankroll is to win and therefore not lose it. Everything else is just fluff.
    5. So that means study and excellence - the hard way forward.
    6. So I wouldn't brush off these people who are trying to help you so easily, just because they are more rigorous in what defines a "bankroll."
  • kageykagey Red Chipper, KINGOFTAGS Posts: 2,231 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 13
    sorry @Daithí
    I'm sensing some frustration in your post on this issue... and truth is: there is no magic formula.

    just like many decisions made on the table - sometimes it just depends...

    without knowing your experience playing cash, tourneys or satellites, I don't think anyone can offer a concrete equation as to how much you should budget for this or that.
    Daithí wrote: »
    Countless books and blogs have addressed this question, yet I still feel it remains unclear.

    there's a reason for this... every player is different. every player has a different edge than another. every player has a different reason/goal for his allocation.

    you've tagged your post "Bankroll Management" and if you click on the Bankroll Management tab on the right side of the main page, you'll see that we have no less than 36 forum posts asking some of the same questions you have. (I recommend checking them out to see if you can gleem any "better" advice._

    It's good that you're being responsible with your funds and trying to allocate them appropriately... but the MOST IMPORTANT REASON for doing this depends on your goals. Are you okay losing because you're learning? Or do you have to always win?
    Are you wanting to move up stakes? How quickly? What is your purpose of playing poker? ... and the list goes on and on.

    Poker is funny. It's like life. The more you know, the more your realize how little you know. I don't think even high stakes pros like @Christian Soto and @berkey11 can give you a definitive answer to your question.

    All we can do is offer some guidelines to help you make the right decision for you.
    Sometimes, you just need to make a choice - see what works and then re-evalutate.
    Such is life!
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 13
    @Daithí: Fair enough. I don't want to speak for everyone else on this thread. I just picked up on how you came to the conclusion that you needed a bankroll based on everything that you read. I -- and others here, it seems -- don't agree with that premise.

    With that in mind, if you DO want to maintain a bankroll, then, by all means, go for it!

    Here's how I would set mine up.

    1) How reliable am I as a winner? As @persuadeo mentioned, if you are a sustained winner without massive spikes and valleys, then you could probably start your cash bankroll with even 10 buy-ins. Otherwise, I'd likely jump it all the way up to 20-30 buy-ins. You NEVER want to be in a place where your bankroll is dictating your play at the table.

    2) As for tournaments, it sounds to me like this is a new area of exploration. If that's the case, I'd just create a budget tournament entry fees. Call it a separate bankroll if you would like.

    3) For online, I'd take an approach similar to tournaments.

    Presumably, you're going to win money at your bread-and-butter cash games. Your next set of questions would be to determine your goals for that money. It is to build a bankroll to try to take shots at a higher level? Is it to pull money off the top to pay bills? Is it to stake your tournament buy-ins (you could start with $0 in your tournament bankroll and fund it entirely from winnings)? Is it get coaching?

    You almost never want to be taking ALL the profits from your bankroll, but neither should you feel obligated to put them all back in. It's just a function of your goals for the year and how your bankroll assists and aligns with them.

    For the record, then reason that I -- and that doesn't mean that it should apply to you!! -- am not interested in any of that is because it is real time and effort, time and effort that I would rather spend on improving my game and time and effort that would distract me from my goal of improving and divert my attention to bottom-line issues.

    That being said, you might have the time to put it in and/or the mental discipline to not be diverted by bankroll issues. In addition, you might have the goal of eventually becoming a semi-pro or pro player, and instilling good habits now could be essential.

    With all that in mind, I hope that the ideas here help. Good luck!

    EDIT: @kagey posted just before I finished mine. He's right on target, too!
  • Dean MDean M Red Chipper Posts: 177 ✭✭✭
    Daithí wrote: »
    @persuadeo Yes, I agree! Btw RoR doesn't necessarily mean in every case that one has to file for personal bankruptcy to the government.

    I’ll only add one more thought. Risk of Ruin has nothing to do with filing bankruptcy... It has to do with losing your ‘tools’. Unlike most other professions, the ‘tools’ a professional player uses just happens to be what we use to purchase our day to day goods and services.

    Thus the need to separate out a portion to be called ‘tools’ or bankroll
  • DaithíDaithí Red Chipper Posts: 25 ✭✭
    edited March 13
    @persuadeo " But then you ask for "tips" on how to keep a bankroll, when this is really a very facetious question. "
    I'm sorry but you're misunderstanding and thus fallaciously representing what I said. I have never asked for tips on "how to keep a bankroll". — That would be silly for obvious reasons! I asked for tips on how to run (not keep) a bankroll for Cash and MTTs simultaneously. Needless to state further the difference. Are you sure I am the one taking the interpretations the wrong way? I have provided texts to support my stance. Where are yours? Needless to say that on top of it, you are telling the texts I provided argue against my conviction and that I extrapolate them wrong, show me where.

    @kagey
    I know BRM is a common question, but no one has asked specifically how to run a comprehensive BRM for CASH and MTTs. To answer your question I want to grow the bankroll so I can play bigger games and therefore grind less over time. I have played around 300k hands in NL2, and around 300k hands in NL5,10 combined. I started losing in NL5 and NL10 and took a break. I had some leaks in the game as well. Mainly getting more involved with good regs more than I should, and exercising poor pot control with TPTK and strong overpairs. Of course there is a room to improve. What was handy for me was that when I took big hits, I rescaled the stakes according to my BMR and it helped massive. Without BMR I would have attacked NL10 with 1/3 or 1/4 of my much smaller bankroll at that time and it would have been over as quick as a breeze. I am comfortable with cash table BRM, but I want to incorporate MTTs into my game, but didn't know what was the best way to approach the symbiosis of the funds, or if I just should run my BR as normal and fund the MTTs separately. Regardless, I thought that approaches to BRM would be discussed here, instead of arguing about the utility of BRM.

    @moishetreats
    Thanks for the tips, appreciated. I will try to seek out answers elsewhere as well and will report back here with what I found, regardless if I will find out with what was recommended here checks out elsewhere as well or otherwise.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,610 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Texts to support my position? I made a rational argument, I don't need texts.

    All you need, for all this chatter, apparently, is an Excel sheet.

    I clearly should not have responded here. My bad.
  • kenaceskenaces Red Chipper Posts: 1,366 ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 13
    persuadeo wrote: »
    The best way and really only way to keep a bankroll is to win and therefore not lose it. Everything else is just fluff.

    +1

    Focus on improving WR and any "reasonable" BR will likely do fine if you take care of improving your WR
  • DaithíDaithí Red Chipper Posts: 25 ✭✭
    @persuadeo your self-proclaimed rational argument is dubious at best. Supported by your own definition of what the REAL Risk of Ruin is.
    [Investopedia]
    DEFINITION of 'Risk Of Ruin'
    The probability of an individual losing sufficient trading or gambling money (known as capital base) to the point at which continuing on is no longer considered an option to recover losses. ... Risk of ruin need not result in bankruptcy (although it often does), but rather the point at which continuing on would be unwise.
    https://investopedia.com/terms/r/risk-of-ruin.asp

    "Risk of ruin is the probability that you’ll lose so much money you can no longer continue trading. This doesn’t mean losing all of your trading capital, the ruin point is based on your own personal risk tolerance, so ruin to you could be 15%, it could be 50% or it could be 100%."
    http://bettersystemtrader.com/riskofruin/

    And you omitted the bit above from Cardschat (pretty reputable card room domain)
    "[N]or does it include any money you're expecting to get in the future."

    All the sources I have provided contradict the main premise your argument is built upon, yet I am the one taking it the wrong way. You have provided 0 peer work to support your argument or prove me wrong.





  • DaithíDaithí Red Chipper Posts: 25 ✭✭
    kenaces wrote: »
    persuadeo wrote: »
    The best way and really only way to keep a bankroll is to win and therefore not lose it. Everything else is just fluff.

    +1

    Focus on improving WR and any "reasonable" BR will likely do fine if you take care of improving your WR

    Of course, no doubt about that. But the issue I raised in the first place was not "how to keep a bankroll", but how to run (manage) a bankroll.
  • kageykagey Red Chipper, KINGOFTAGS Posts: 2,231 ✭✭✭✭✭
    No one likes persaudeo's way of expressing himself, @Daithí. It's not the best part of him. However, underneath the crap is some very functional advice.

    Now that you're offering more details - I can offer a better way to look at your situation.

    With your BRM, you probably have a stop-loss. Let's say it's 3 buy-ins.
    My advice would be to take one of your buy-ins and play a tourney with it.
    So if you're playing 3 tables with $5 each, make it two cash tables and one tourney for $5 each. But if you bust out of the tourney, you'll have to wait until tomorrow to play another one.

    I'd also advise not to play a tourney... but sit-n-goes instead. Typically, the top 3 places pay so you're getting paid for making the top 33% of the field, whereas with a tourney, you have to usually make the top 10-15%. The SnGs dont' last as long so you won't get tired playing them. And because the field remains the same for the entirity of the SnG, you'll be able to take notes and get reads on your opponents like you do with cash games.

    But NOTE: the leaks you have in the cash games will transfer over to the sit-n-goes. So, it's best for you to fix them before you venture into new territory.

    Once you're ROI for sit-n-goes is 40%+, then you'll be ready to venture into tourneys with some good experience under your belt.

    One last thing... sit-n-goes like tourneys have ICM (independent chip model) implications and imo, require a different poker muscle than cash games. You'll also have to study and learn about push/fold which isn't as important in cash game.

    Best of luck.
  • kenaceskenaces Red Chipper Posts: 1,366 ✭✭✭✭
    Daithí wrote: »
    kenaces wrote: »
    persuadeo wrote: »
    The best way and really only way to keep a bankroll is to win and therefore not lose it. Everything else is just fluff.

    +1

    Focus on improving WR and any "reasonable" BR will likely do fine if you take care of improving your WR

    Of course, no doubt about that. But the issue I raised in the first place was not "how to keep a bankroll", but how to run (manage) a bankroll.

    Relentless obsession about always improving your poker skills is the key skill in keeping, and growing a bankroll.

    After that - not spending too much of your BR, exercising move down discipline when needed.

    As far as number of buy-ins - anything reasonable is fine if you take care of above.

    I don't see the point in having multiple bankrolls as money is fungible.



  • Dean MDean M Red Chipper Posts: 177 ✭✭✭
    kagey wrote: »
    No one likes persaudeo's way of expressing himself, @Daithí. It's not the best part of him. However, underneath the crap is some very functional advice.

    LOL - you really need to learn to let this stuff go...
  • DaithíDaithí Red Chipper Posts: 25 ✭✭
    edited March 14
    @kagey
    Sorry guys, it's not letting me post the entire post
  • DaithíDaithí Red Chipper Posts: 25 ✭✭
    edited March 14
    @kagey
    Great reply! And interesting angle.

    As far as sitngos, I appreciate your recommendation. I understand your point about ICM and In the Money strategy over MTTs. But I just sort of grew an allergy toward sitngos :).

    It was about 10 years ago when I was more recreational than now. Played everything and anything and no BMR. I would have deposited 30 bucks and sit down to NL25 Cash and tried my best :). Once I got to 250 bucks. But of course I lost everything shortly after lol. Then I would play, let's say, NL 5 with 25 bankroll. Played a little longer but met the same fate, hadn't a read a poker book at that time of course. Heard about Pot odds but was too lazy.

    So at that time I decided that I am burning money too quickly in cash games, so I started playing sitngos. It was fun. I played for weeks and seemed to do alright. I think moved up stakes, like 10 buyins. And started losing. Eventually i didn't enjoy at all busting out 3rd or 4th (bubble boy) quite too often. And I started to hate the tournament structure for single table eventually, small payoffs. Of course, I didn't know about ICM. It's irrational attitude, sure, but it's as if I lost passion for sitngos.

    I used to hate Cash game because the financial pressure and it pacified my play. But then I read books on Cash game and found HUDs and BRM and absolutely love cash game! But I like MTTs too due their potential to win big.

    Interesting angle. So you're suggesting to play the same stake as cash game but put a cap on it, say 1 a day. That's something to consider. Assuming it's a no-rebuy no-addon. It it was I would have to half it it to account for the addon at least. Also this brings to the issue of satellite. I will probably have to resort to playing a lot of satellites too to qualify for decent games. Any tips on satellite funding? I have read blogs on satellite strategy. I think it's mostly the same as MTT apart from some customization, like really playing protective nearing the bubble like laying down even AA preflop if it posed a threat of going all in against a deep stack, etc.

    As for general leaks. Absolutely! I'm aware of this. I took a hiatus of about 1 year of online poker. I am working on my leaks. I am trying to understand ranges better, working out pot odds off the table to have faster grasp. I bought Flopzilla recently. I will play just a single table like 1 or 2 stakes below my target for a while like 2 weeks or until I feel comfortable. Then I'll play a single table at me targer stakes to see how I feel about their game and my game. If all good I'll probably open up 6 tables. I was playing up to 15 in NL2, even 24 several times. But I feel around 8 is comfy. But decisions get harder the higher the stakes, and will have to utilise pop-ups and that takes more time.

    MTTs, my preparation, I read Dan Harrington on modern Tournaments. To good thing is that tournaments really share over 80% of cash gameplay. In Tourneys, your game play is dictated a lot by M-Ratio. When deep you play pretty much a cash game. As the M-ratio gets smaller you adjust your play. I tournaments I think you have to be more careful against which stacks you engage, as can't top up etc. Obviously there's a lot more to it.

    In cash you need more skill. Because the deeper the stack, the more skill is required as there's more room post flop for mistakes, etc.
  • DaithíDaithí Red Chipper Posts: 25 ✭✭
    Daithí wrote: »
    @kagey
    Sorry guys, it's not letting me post the entire post

    Managed :)
  • DaithíDaithí Red Chipper Posts: 25 ✭✭
    @Dean M The bankruptcy example was a hyperbole not be taken literally.

    "It has to do with losing your ‘tools’."
    Let me ask you this. Say, you are a recreational player on €330 a week. Your bills equate to around €290 a week. In 2 or 3 years you managed to build €10,000 bankroll. Those 10,000 are your poker tools. Maybe you want to be a semi-pro in a year or two if things keep getting better. I view this as tools enabling you to the "certain activity" on "certain level". Being Pro is again a higher level tier, where your winnings can sustain you. If a serious recreational player busts his bankroll he can replenish say 5% of his bankroll and played micro stakes. Equally when a pro goes bust out of his level, he can replenish say 1% go flip burgers and play microstakes. Of course he won't be able to sustain him/herself from poker anymore — that's why they have more stringent BRM.

    Essentially it boils down to what you associate Risk of Ruin with. Is it directly linked with a profession or is it directly linked with an "activity" at a "level". Persuadeo clearly links it to "profession. And that's why I had already said in my early comments that I find that radical, or purist if you will. As all modern material I have seen agrees that it is applicable to more than just profession. I asked him to show me otherwise, I am keen to learn and will out my hand up if I'm clearly wrong, but all I got was ego-stroking and bigotry.
  • Dean MDean M Red Chipper Posts: 177 ✭✭✭
    We can battle back and forth forever on this one but... it's been beaten to death in the forums already. Recently, every time the question has been asked on various podcasts I listen to the answer has been "This is irrelevant for anyone but poker only income players"

    One problem is that variance can be brutal. You can have a BR of 100 or 500 buy-ins for your game and literally go on a downswing that wipes it out entirely.

    Another problem is that you need to be willing to burn off some money to learn the game. Good coaching is expensive and when you start to implement new strategies you're going to burn money while you perfect it to make more in the future.

    Finally, you can use a lot of mental energy and come up with the 'perfect BRM strategy' that's always somewhat of a crap shoot or you can use mental energy to think about the game. IMO - mental energy is better used thinking about game strategy.

    My opinion isn't worth much as a newer Rec. player - @Kagey has been around a while so I'd respect his a bit more and @persuadeo has forgotten more about poker than I'll ever know so you'll do well to absorb everything he says.

  • SullySully Red Chipper Posts: 726 ✭✭✭
    edited March 14
    Al Davis said it best;

    Just Win Baby
  • DaithíDaithí Red Chipper Posts: 25 ✭✭
    edited March 14
    This is from PokerstarsSchool Super Moderator:
    "BRM is for ALL players.... from newbies up to the top end pros. Anyone not using it.. is destined to go busto."

    As I said, I respect your philosophy on this forum and if you think BRM cannot apply to recreational players, that's fine. I didn't come here to challenge anyone, but I didn't come here with 0 knowledge either. I have taken some suggestions from Kagey and Moishe on board. I am now gonna go to a forum with whose philosophy I resonate. I wish you all the best on you poker journeys.
  • kageykagey Red Chipper, KINGOFTAGS Posts: 2,231 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Dean M wrote: »
    LOL - you really need to learn to let this stuff go...

  • Steve WSteve W Red Chipper Posts: 43 ✭✭
    I believe BRM is not a static situation and is fluid. There are several flavors and I honestly struggle with the very same thing the OP has. I play both MTT's and Cash. There really isn't a magic formula for BRM honestly.

    It comes down to your personal evaluation. BRM depends on what you want to accomplish out of poker before you can consider how to manage it. I agree to an extent in all the posts here but it is purely you that makes this decision.

    STEP ONE: Why you play poker.

    STEP TWO: How much investment are you willing to put into your poker game (training, game selection, travel costs to casinos, etc) come up with THE Risk of Ruin number.

    STEP THREE: Take an inventory of your game. Look at your PT4 / HEM2 graphs and really take a self evaluation and put forth honest inventory of whether you are a winning player or your not.

    STEP FOUR: Manage your track and stick to it. The management is sooo important to focus on.

    I do believe that Bankroll Management is on top of every Pro's arsenal in their poker game when you play against them. If you are weak in your bankroll management, they will spot it in a second in your play. Majority of your games, I will assume are on the track of not figuring it out.

    We see some sick bluffs online and live games and I guarantee, the sicker bluffs can be achieved more so without error and without thought of going broke as it's due to their BRM.

    Now with this all said, I believe the BRM struggle is real guys. It took awhile to figure that the ole theories of brm of 100 buyins for MTT's and 30 buyins of cash games is hard to digest.

    I will close with this. I honestly hadn't figured out yet the Investment risk I am willing to stop playing poker all together and that is the challenge. Is there a such a thing as well, I will never stop? ? Haha, I will be here when everyone else goes broke is my goal I guess. Well, isn't that all our goals in poker anyways ...


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