Time to Vent after losing thousands!

radical_dgradical_dg Red Chipper Posts: 29 ✭✭
Alright guys, this is something I run into on a nightly basis and I simply have had enough but I don’t know how to fix the problem. I have lost thousands over the last year to this specific problem.

V1 limp
V2 $15
H $45 TT
V1 call
V2 all in ($15 more)
H call
V1 call

Flop: J86r

V1 donk $100
H fold

Turn 2
River 3

V2 win with AQ high
V1 doesn’t show

This happens to me more than anyone I’ve talked to and it is absolutely infuriating. They aren’t colluding because I can count 50 times this has happened to me in the last 3 months by more than just these two. How do you guys combat this obvious leak into my profits? Do you announce to the other player, “Hey I have a real hand, don’t bluff into dead money.”

I would take bad beat over bad beat, slow roll over slow roll, but the moment this happens I have to take a long walk because it gets me steaming worse than anything else .

LMK what ya’ll do to combat this.

Devin

Comments

  • radical_dgradical_dg Red Chipper Posts: 29 ✭✭
    Was thinking of creating business cards that read something like, “this card is to congratulate you on earning one complimentary slow roll courtesy of myself after you were caught bluffing into dead money.”
  • EazzyEazzy Red Chipper Posts: 1,018 ✭✭✭✭
    i have somewhat the same problem. It comes down to not believing players can play so illogically

    For me its been players min raising wet boards with monster hands.
    i have Ad9d
    i raise get called
    flop KdJd 8h

    I bet and get min raised This cant be a big hand on this wet a baord i come over the top size ge calls he has KJ


    and this has happend 4 or 5 times most recently ep limped QQ and on a Q98ss bard min raised my bet....


    makes no sense.....


    my solution make a note on that player Illogical play is illogical for a reason , Its hard to believe players can play that badly...but keep it in mind....adjust for the ones you see do it.
  • Paul_KPaul_K DFWRed Chipper Posts: 334 ✭✭✭
    edited March 2018
    @radical_dg. I’ll preface this with the fact that I’m not a fan of angle shooting, and I am against it in most cases. But I believe this one is fair and I’ve used it successfully a few times.

    In the exact type of situation you posted, and with the weaker portion of my 3bet range... announce a big 5 bet raise after V2 shove. When the dealer informs you that you can’t raise here, you can act as though you didn’t realize that. Then make the call. That should settle down your V1 a bit.

    If I ever see a big donk lead bluff like this, I will remember that player forever. I just don’t see it very often at all.

    Where do you play?
  • kageykagey Red Chipper, KINGOFTAGS Posts: 2,241 ✭✭✭✭✭
    it's cool and sexy to 3-bet hands like 99 & TT... and even JJ
    but unless you have a soul-read on your opponent, more times that not... they're best played as a call.

    also, consider using a more polarizing bet sizing.
    raising to 45 is inviting OR to call.
    me? I'd make it 55-80 (depending on whether this is ½, ⅓ or 2/5)
    I like to put my Vs to the test.
    (I'm also very "sticky" in the pots that I've created.

    Ultimately - I think you've got some issues with your range construction.
    and it sounds like you play fit-or-fold even in the pots where you should have the stronges range.

    I know guys in my room that pick on this one nitty guy and call him in position with nearly everything - because they know if he checks, they can steal the pot away.
    And if he bets small, they can raise him off his hand because it's obvious that he didn't hit the flop.

    Do yourself a favor - stop playing and invest a few hundred in a coach.
    You need to spend more time in range vs. range analysis - be willing to call when you might be behind, and learn to have more bluffs in your game. imo, you also need to be okay losing pots (don't be scared money). You'll never have perfect information. So, there will be times when V has 10 combos that beat you but 36 combos that don't. In those cases... f**k it, we're fine with putting more money it the pot.

    someone like @persuadeo or @Faustovaldez123 can show you how to play in tough, aggressive games.

    you're on the right track with posting HHs. now take the next step, seek professional help.
  • RCP Coach - Fausto ValdezRCP Coach - Fausto Valdez RCP Coach Posts: 859 ✭✭✭✭
    Im here
    COACHING NOW AVAILABLE HERE
    MY COACHING REVIEWS HERE
  • kageykagey Red Chipper, KINGOFTAGS Posts: 2,241 ✭✭✭✭✭
    @Faustovaldez123 .... throw the man a bone....
  • RCP Coach - Fausto ValdezRCP Coach - Fausto Valdez RCP Coach Posts: 859 ✭✭✭✭
    Cant tell much from @radical_dg post but from what i see ure obviously frustrated especially since ure trying to find a possible way that someones colluding vs u ... it also seems ure playing face up/abc vs any sign of aggression when ure in the middle of ure range. You will never get anywhere with that especially vs the slightest sign aggression. You will also not allow ureself to pick up dead money, thus u wont have much of an edge which will be force to rely on ure cards and thats no winning strat.

    In this particular scenerio learn ure opponents tendencies and how he will proceed with his ranges post flop. It should be more clear their intentions once u see the action and hands that have showdown. But learn to pick up on frequencies and tendencies faster that will lead you to conclude an opponents style and tendencies at a faster rate without the need of seeing hands at showdown.
    COACHING NOW AVAILABLE HERE
    MY COACHING REVIEWS HERE
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
    This reminds me of LATB videos between Nick and Garrett. Garrett is reckless to the point where last time he min 4 bet Nick on

    :KS::8S::5S::2H:

    I forget the bet sizing but went like 2.5k to $6k to 8.5k to 11k etc. Garrett only had T7o with zero equity but he is playing the fact Nick won't stack off vs aggression without a flush.

    Your game seems like a wild short stack game. With people trying to give you money i have a hard time with understanding why you have lost thou$and$ in this game. Probably playing fit or fold face up.

    As @Kagey pointed out TT is a marginal 3 bet hand..it has its place but better served as a flat call. In loose games like this where your 3 bet goes MW you want a larger sizing or flat call the pfr as kagey pointed out. If you stick to QQ+ AK+ should be better then let them give you money.

    Vs EP maybe only 3 bet QQ+ AKs
    Vs MP JJ+ AKo
    Vs LP JJ+ AKo then throw in some AQ or bluffs like 86s and A5s if you think you have FE.

    Post more HH and welcome feed back.

    Start with the basics. What range are you opening from Ep, MP, LP,
    What are your table dynamics? Stack sizes?

    Never stop asking questions.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,353 ✭✭✭✭
    Eazzy wrote: »
    i have somewhat the same problem. It comes down to not believing players can play so illogically

    [...]
    Nobody plays illogically. Every players are logic. They just don't all share YOUR logic. If you try to outplay a bad players - such kind of guy who plays Q4o because it's his favorite hands, 42o because straight draw or 92s because FD - then you can't assign them the same range and strategy as you, a studied (good) player, have.

    You've to observe them more. Then you will see pattern in their "illogical thinking", and finally being able to understand their game and outplay them.

    But stop thinking that they are illogical, and stop thinking that everybody is playing on the same level.
    Observe, understand, adapt.
  • bigburge10bigburge10 Red Chipper Posts: 1,311 ✭✭✭✭
    radical_dg wrote: »
    How do you guys combat this obvious leak into my profits? Do you announce to the other player, “Hey I have a real hand, don’t bluff into dead money.”
    Even if you announced this, why should they listen? Bluffing into dead money is the best time to bluff!

  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 5,001 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Kind of confused by the talk about "bluffing into dead money". There isn't any dead money in this pot until hero folds. I think what people are trying to say is "bluffing into a dry side pot".

    General advice is don't bluff into a dry side pot. But this hand is a good example of when it can work. Depending on V1's read on V2's, it can obviously be perfectly logical. The obvious best scenario is when you think you have V2 beat and can get hero to fold a better hand. But there are more subtle math scenarios too.

    So don't always label the dry side pot bluffers as complete donkeys unless you have other evidence as well.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 5,001 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2018
    Kind of confused by the talk about "bluffing into dead money". There isn't any dead money in this pot until hero folds. I think what people are trying to say is "bluffing into a dry side pot".

    General advice is don't bluff into a dry side pot. But this hand is a good example of when it can work. Depending on V1's read on V2's, it can obviously be perfectly logical. The obvious best scenario is when you think you have V2 beat and can get hero to fold a better hand. But there are more subtle math scenarios too.

    So don't always label the dry side pot bluffers as complete donkeys unless you have other evidence as well.

    As played you don't mention stack sizes. Without knowing, I either call or raise to at least $60 usually in that spot. By calling notice that V2 would not be shoving.
  • radical_dgradical_dg Red Chipper Posts: 29 ✭✭
    As far as the “thousands” I mentioned, that had been over the course of the last year in this type of exact scenario. I absolutely crush this game, however there is a massive leak in my profits from this exact scenario and it’s more tilting than a 1 outer.

    I also realize that there are times where it would benefit V2 to get V1 heads up and fold out my equity share. However, 99.5% of the player pool at this game are not thinking on this level at all.

    When I asked the Villain, “Why did you bluff when there isn’t even a side pot to win?” His response was, “I didn’t think I was.” They are so simple at this level that he didn’t realize he was bluffing... when in reality he couldn’t even beat AQ high.

    The problem I have is, I don’t ever give someone credit for bluffing when they are ultimately going to have to show their hand down vs the original all in. Most of the time when this happens, they throw a tip on their cards and pass them in facedown, then they realize that another player is all in and their response is something like, “Shoot! I didn’t even see he was all in! That’s my bad, I just have ten high.”.............then I blast off and go take an angry pi$$.

    Also, 3-betting TT in this exact scenario was always going to happen because of how short the original raiser was. I have no problem getting TT in vs this open and this player as this open could be 56s+ (trust me). I could of sized a bit larger than I did, but $45 usually gets it HU.
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2018
    Been there -- not this exact scenario, but a single repetitive play or instance that killed my winnings. And I'd be willing to bet that most of us have, too. In truth, it wasn't until I turned the mirror around, examining MY play that was leading to these scenarios, taking the onus on myself, and making adjustments to my play and game that I was about to turn things around.

    My honest reaction to your posts in this thread: you're frustrated because you're making the "right" or "proper" play and you just wish that your opponents would play "better" or differently. And you have given lots of good reasons and justifications for the plays that you are making.

    The reality, though, is that is on you to adjust. At some point, your mindset needs to change from "this keeps happening to me" to "what am I doing poorly that allows me to be continually exploited, and what I do I need to do differently to counter that exploit?" There's a point at which, if you keep losing in one specific way, that it can't be put on others or variance or anything else. I think that you're at -- if not far past -- that point.

    So, time for self-reflection. Pretend that you're the guy making this play against someone else, generating lots of folds from better hands in the middle of that guy's range. And he is now clearly tilting. What is the adjustment/exploit that that guy could make that would frustrate the hell out of you? I'd start there. And feel free to post your thoughts here for further reflection and discussion!
  • NYCRyNYCRy Red Chipper Posts: 336 ✭✭✭
    Its like when Durrrr made Eastgate fold those trips
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper Posts: 4,308 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Radical, you are overreacting. It is a poker myth that you should not bet into this pot without clear value. This isn't a tournament where you are incentivized to knock out the all-in player.

    Moreover, expecting other players to think like we do can be a very subtle thing to overcome, because we generally aren't realizing that we are doing it.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 5,001 ✭✭✭✭✭
    persuadeo wrote: »
    This isn't a tournament where you are incentivized to knock out the all-in player.

    I was going to mention that example. You're in a satellite where the top 3 players get a seat, and you're down to the final 4. You're in a 3 way pot and the low stack at the table is all in preflop, while you and villain have chips to play with. You have A4 and the flop is A92. Villain shoves, and you fold. Low stack shows QQ and villain shows TT.

    In this situation casino security will actually look the other way if you take villain out to the parking lot and kneecap him.

    Correct procedure is a form of implicit collusion. (Hint: it does not involve bluffing into a dry side pot here!)
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 5,001 ✭✭✭✭✭
    radical_dg wrote: »
    When I asked the Villain, “Why did you bluff when there isn’t even a side pot to win?” His response was, “I didn’t think I was.”

    This is just one reason live tells aren't as reliable as you'd like them to be. If someone doesn't know what they have, it's hard to get a read on them.

    It sounds like this is happening to you a lot more than me. I personally haven't seen it happen that often to any of the players at the table, let alone me.
  • jfarrow13jfarrow13 Red Chipper Posts: 1,254 ✭✭✭✭
    kagey wrote: »
    imo, you also need to be okay losing pots (don't be scared money). You'll never have perfect information. So, there will be times when V has 10 combos that beat you but 36 combos that don't. In those cases... f**k it, we're fine with putting more money it the pot.

    This, but also this is why it's so important to pay attention at the table. Note what hands they have been showing down with, raising with, their raising frequency. Then just take your time with a decision, review the action, the ranges that make sense, and the type of player. It maybe sounds like your over folding. I'm not saying become a calling station, but for me this is a clear call. And if you get it wrong, write it down and review it later. If you keep making the same mistake, maybe seek some outside help. One of my biggest leaks is that I'll act quickly without considering the variables enough, and upon review if I had taken my time, I'd have taken a different course of action. This doesn't mean take 15 seconds on each street every single hand, but when your about to make a decision that could result in a big pot, don't be afraid to think it over a bit.
  • TonyTwoCheeksTonyTwoCheeks Red Chipper Posts: 17 ✭✭
    I can’t help but think about how the hand would have played if you had gone the extra $15 and raised to $60 to cover V2 versus allowing V1 to call small (I know calling $42-$43 is not small) and then call small again. Would V1 have limp-called an extra $57-58? Either way you were going to get $60 in pre-flop.

Leave a Comment

BoldItalicStrikethroughOrdered listUnordered list
Emoji
Image
Align leftAlign centerAlign rightToggle HTML viewToggle full pageToggle lights
Drop image/file