Game selection

AneeryAneery Red Chipper Posts: 8 ✭✭
Hi fellas,
The only casino in my town has the following selection of games. NLH 1/3 max $200. NLH 5/5 max $500.
1/3 usually attracts all the fish and people are super loose. Typical raise is $15 pre may get 3-4 callers. Limpers hate folding. If you raise bigger you kinda screw up the SPR and ending up multiway anyways.
5/5 is a bit tougher as most of the good regs play it.
The question is what game would be more profitable on long run? What is the best way to approach 1/3 multiway madness?
Appreciate your responses!
«1345

Comments

  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,639 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Aneery wrote: »
    If you raise bigger you kinda screw up the SPR

    What do you mean by that?

    Can't answer which is more profitable. Either could be. In the smaller game you'll win more BB by actually making a hand, but to beat the bigger game, it would have to be "enough more". Which it probably is, but then maybe you could win more in the bigger game by stealing more pots. Depends on the game tendencies and your strong points as a player. There are many different scenarios.

  • AneeryAneery Red Chipper Posts: 8 ✭✭
    jeffnc wrote: »
    Aneery wrote: »
    If you raise bigger you kinda screw up the SPR

    What do you mean by that?

    Say I’m on the button with AQo there are 7 limpers before me. I raise to $25 to isolate. Get 2 callers. Which makes pot a bit over $100. With $175 behind (it’s $200 max game) I have less than 2 SPR.
    Does it mean that I should never raise big with suited connectors or small to middle pairs? Should I be limping too?
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,639 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Well I guess it depends what you mean by "screwed up" SPR. Sometimes you will want a low SPR. But you don't want a low SPR to set mine or speculate with suited connectors when you have little postflop fold equity.

    Raising "big" with suited connectors will only break this rule if you are effectively shallow. If you have a $1,000 stack you can raise to $20, but if you have a $100 stack you shouldn't (again, ignoring fold equity).

    A hand like AQo tends to make top pair hands, not straights or flushes or sets, so a smaller SPR is appropriate.
  • jfarrow13jfarrow13 Red Chipper Posts: 1,253 ✭✭✭✭
    If everyone at the $200 $1/3 hates limp folding, hands like suited connectors and trashy broadway hands lose value as you cannot bank on stolen BB's making up for it on times you are called and go MW, where you should tread oh so lightly with marginal hands. HOWEVER, if these players limp, call hands like J10o and will hit a J on the flop but still fold to pressure....well then you can play a wider range. Otherwise, stick to the boring "make a good hand, get da monies in". Don't limp hands like 76s, as tempting as it might be. If it is as big of a limp fest as you say, you'll find yourself staring down K8s too often for those hands to be profitable. Poker is a relational game, I always come in playing a certain style or strategy, but my strategy is contingent on weak players limp folding, or limp calling too often, but are unwilling to call down 3 streets (as a general rule of thumb). So if you limp k10s and I raise on the BU and the flop comes k 8 3 rainbow, these players often have a hard time calling down 3 streets, because so often they will find themselves starting at AK or sometimes even KQ. This is why sometimes I get stacked in the first 15 minutes, because I run into a player who WILL call it down like that if I haven't already picked up on the fact that they will. Well, you can be damn sure people saw that, and my next couple of hands of betting will surely be value oriented, and I tend to get a big chunk of my $ back. Hope it helps.


    (hands I will occasionally limp call with in games like these are Axs, not good one trash ones, just because I can potentially have other FD's dominated, yet see a flop for cheap, and PP in an attempt to set mine when I don't think I have FE or can get the hand HU.)


    DONT play A10o, K10o ect if these players limp call AJ, KJ hands and will call you down. These type of hands might look good, but unless you are making money pre-flop with limp folds or can get the flop HU's, these hands blow.
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭✭
    Have you considered limping with every hand that you play in EP or MP and developing a limp-raise range?
  • AneeryAneery Red Chipper Posts: 8 ✭✭
    jeffnc wrote: »
    Well I guess it depends what you mean by "screwed up" SPR. Sometimes you will want a low SPR. But you don't want a low SPR to set mine or speculate with suited connectors when you have little postflop fold equity.

    Raising "big" with suited connectors will only break this rule if you are effectively shallow. If you have a $1,000 stack you can raise to $20, but if you have a $100 stack you shouldn't (again, ignoring fold equity).

    A hand like AQo tends to make top pair hands, not straights or flushes or sets, so a smaller SPR is appropriate.

    Ok, got it. So it's basically coming to the point of planing your actions in advance. So hands like AQo I'd raise big to isolate. and hands like 78s or 22 just limp in? Would this be a good strategy?
  • AneeryAneery Red Chipper Posts: 8 ✭✭
    Have you considered limping with every hand that you play in EP or MP and developing a limp-raise range?

    Interesting concept. Would you limp raise JJ+, AQs+,AQo+? Or go a bit wider?
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭✭
    Aneery wrote: »
    Have you considered limping with every hand that you play in EP or MP and developing a limp-raise range?

    Interesting concept. Would you limp raise JJ+, AQs+,AQo+? Or go a bit wider?

    Depends on how many players are in the pot, what the action has been, and how people have been responding to your limp-raise pre-flop and post-flop. So, yes and yes? :)

    You'll also need to consider if you need to have a couple of bluff hands to balance your range (the importance of balance depends entirely on how other players are responding to you) and/or to be able to represent better board coverage.
  • EazzyEazzy Red Chipper Posts: 946 ✭✭✭✭
    When Bad players call a lot pre flop this is a good thing. when they do it with a relitivly short stack its a great thing. Trying to get them to play better with bigger raises is a bad thing. Don't worry too much about SPR in multiway pots against bad players.

    Yes while your stack is $200, your going to half to gamble..but with great odds. Limp shoving may be fine...shoving over a raise and a couple of callers may be fine. Shoving flush draws or whatever on the flop may be fine. Limping when everyone is limping may be fine. In multiway pots with 70 ish stocks with players who don't like folding means you play a value based game with all the money going in on the flop or turn. Don't figure on doing a lot of bluffing.

    learn to play multiway pots. IMO they are often easier to play (you will just have to give up a lot more)...players tend to play them straightforward or as complete droollers figure out who is doing which.. If they are droollers value bet thin. Figure out who (and when) they turn from droolers to playing face up.

    Preflop favor hands that can flop top pair good kicker over hands that get equity. Equity hands get in a cheaply as possible or not at all. Don't think Redchippers and Ed MIller's The Course says always raise the button with 87s over two limpers....but with the loose blinds and loose cally limpers, here just calling can be just fine.

    Once you get deeper and other players get deeper you can begin to shift to a more aggressive style with more bluffs, assuming the cally players respect big bets more (which is usally the case).

    The trick really is to figure out what kind of multiway pots your getting and why. Loose palyers who dont care about odds willing to gamble $200 stacks and are willing to put there last $80 in with 2nd pair when the flush missed may be common. Loose players deep who think they have great implied odds for $15 and maybe $50 flop bets, are common. But deep loose players who call 3 barrels with top pair no kicker is much less common.

    If you watch how these games play, and which players tighten up and where, you will find that they are easy to crush.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,639 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Limping is like rhyming in poetry. As a beginner, you do it and suck, as an amateur, you're told not to do it because you care about not sucking, as a master, you can do whatever the hell you want because you're a master.

    I like that.

    As to the rest, I don't.
    2) it's mental more taxing to play a mixed limping range than to just raise

    Horrible reason not to.

    Basically everything else you said is game dependent, and not generic as you implied. There are conditions under which your negatives are valid, and conditions under which they're not.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,639 ✭✭✭✭✭
    If you just disagree for disagreement's sake can you just ignore my comments? You seem to have it in for me, there's no point in engaging or trying to change your mind in any way, and the rudeness is just unnecessary.

    I disagree with you, as others do, because we don't think you make very good arguments, and I state the specific reasons.

    Do you want to just ignore threads where you disagree with someone? Would that solve the problem?

    And whatever you're taking for rudeness isn't there.

  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,639 ✭✭✭✭✭
    You're arguing your point just as hard as I am. I push harder against people who are pushing hard - that's natural, no? I've never said anything personal against you, I'm only discussing the content. I read what you have to say with interest, and you've obviously done some original thinking about the game. I just happen to disagree with some of your conclusions and I think I have good reasons for it, so I state them. If I didn't, it would be a disservice to the newer players listening in. I'm not a particularly good player compared to a lot of people on this forum, but I know a non sequitur when I see one - and I don't have to be a pro player to point those out.
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭✭
    Have you considered limping with every hand that you play in EP or MP and developing a limp-raise range?

    @ScandalMongering Zama and @kenaces: Why on earth would you disagree with this?? I posed a thought-experiment question and then continued the discussion. Is there any reason that you would want to shut down a possible line of think without giving it room to explore it?

    You might have presumed that I was suggesting this as the best response. Nope! :) I'm not advocating for it but neither am I dismissing it so casually. I raised a genuine question that I think merits discussion (and thanks for your thoughts, @ScandalMongering Zama).
  • kenaceskenaces Red Chipper Posts: 1,387 ✭✭✭✭
    Have you considered limping with every hand that you play in EP or MP and developing a limp-raise range?

    @ScandalMongering Zama and @kenaces: Why on earth would you disagree with this?? I posed a thought-experiment question and then continued the discussion. Is there any reason that you would want to shut down a possible line of think without giving it room to explore it?

    I am only trying to save you time and money.

    The only place I have found a solid argument for having a limping strat is BvB or on shorter stack size in HU play. Outside of this it is a waste of EV and a waste of time to try to create/study some weak strategy. There are so many more productive uses for ones limited poker study time.
  • kenaceskenaces Red Chipper Posts: 1,387 ✭✭✭✭
    For a whole year, one of the biggest winners in $1/2 ZOOM had a mixed pre-flop limping range.

    who was this? In today's games? Outside BvB?

    Only online MSNL winner I can remember (back in the day) who limped was sharknebula, and I always thought he was a bit overrated? wonder if he still plays?
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,966 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Disagreeing doesn't stop conversation or shut down lines of inquiry, if anything it should encourage it.
  • NYCRyNYCRy Red Chipper Posts: 336 ✭✭✭
    kenaces wrote: »
    Have you considered limping with every hand that you play in EP or MP and developing a limp-raise range?

    @ScandalMongering Zama and @kenaces: Why on earth would you disagree with this?? I posed a thought-experiment question and then continued the discussion. Is there any reason that you would want to shut down a possible line of think without giving it room to explore it?

    I am only trying to save you time and money.

    The only place I have found a solid argument for having a limping strat is BvB or on shorter stack size in HU play. Outside of this it is a waste of EV and a waste of time to try to create/study some weak strategy. There are so many more productive uses for ones limited poker study time.

    I disagree with discouraging experimentation and encouraging just taking people on internet forums word for stuff.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,639 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Honestly, if you have deep opinions about extremely sophisticated systems that you've never thoroughly explored

    Are you trolling now? If so congratulations, I'll reply.

    "reasons why limping is a bad idea, but off-handedly: 2) it's mental more taxing to play a mixed limping range than to just raise"

    This is an extremely sophisticated system? Seriously? Go read through your thread called "Constructing Your Triple Barrel Bluff Range By Texture", and then come back here and try to convince anyone that something as simple as limping sometimes and raising sometimes is so mentally taxing that we shouldn't be doing it.

    Like I said, I know a non sequitur when I see one, and you don't even have to be a poker player, let alone a good one, to see the flaw in that argument.

    Let's just keep it real, yeah? Unless you are just pulling my leg, in which case.... good one.

  • kenaceskenaces Red Chipper Posts: 1,387 ✭✭✭✭
    NYCRy wrote: »
    kenaces wrote: »
    Have you considered limping with every hand that you play in EP or MP and developing a limp-raise range?

    @ScandalMongering Zama and @kenaces: Why on earth would you disagree with this?? I posed a thought-experiment question and then continued the discussion. Is there any reason that you would want to shut down a possible line of think without giving it room to explore it?

    I am only trying to save you time and money.

    The only place I have found a solid argument for having a limping strat is BvB or on shorter stack size in HU play. Outside of this it is a waste of EV and a waste of time to try to create/study some weak strategy. There are so many more productive uses for ones limited poker study time.

    I disagree with discouraging experimentation and encouraging just taking people on internet forums word for stuff.

    Funny thing is I agree with this.
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭✭
    kenaces wrote: »
    Have you considered limping with every hand that you play in EP or MP and developing a limp-raise range?

    @ScandalMongering Zama and @kenaces: Why on earth would you disagree with this?? I posed a thought-experiment question and then continued the discussion. Is there any reason that you would want to shut down a possible line of think without giving it room to explore it?

    I am only trying to save you time and money.

    The only place I have found a solid argument for having a limping strat is BvB or on shorter stack size in HU play. Outside of this it is a waste of EV and a waste of time to try to create/study some weak strategy. There are so many more productive uses for ones limited poker study time.

    Rather than disagreeing, I would be FAAAAR more interested in reading why you are so convinced that there is no place for a limp strategy in this situation.

    In addition, it seems odd that you would disagree with me asking a question for exploration while agreeing with the following (from another post):

    "I for one think the forums are greatly improved by intentional questions and exercises like this one. Obviously, we are free to agree or disagree with the conclusions of the OP."

    I asked an intentional question, and I think that the exercise in exploring it is valuable. If you don't think that the question leads me/you/us down a good path, then great. But, rather than shutting down the value of the question, why not share why you would discourage that course?

    I truly enjoy reading your thoughts, @kenaces, and I think that our conversation would be far better off hearing your thoughts rather than dismissiveness.
  • kenaceskenaces Red Chipper Posts: 1,387 ✭✭✭✭
    kenaces wrote: »
    Have you considered limping with every hand that you play in EP or MP and developing a limp-raise range?

    @ScandalMongering Zama and @kenaces: Why on earth would you disagree with this?? I posed a thought-experiment question and then continued the discussion. Is there any reason that you would want to shut down a possible line of think without giving it room to explore it?

    I am only trying to save you time and money.

    The only place I have found a solid argument for having a limping strat is BvB or on shorter stack size in HU play. Outside of this it is a waste of EV and a waste of time to try to create/study some weak strategy. There are so many more productive uses for ones limited poker study time.

    Rather than disagreeing, I would be FAAAAR more interested in reading why you are so convinced that there is no place for a limp strategy in this situation.

    In addition, it seems odd that you would disagree with me asking a question for exploration while agreeing with the following (from another post):

    "I for one think the forums are greatly improved by intentional questions and exercises like this one. Obviously, we are free to agree or disagree with the conclusions of the OP."

    I asked an intentional question, and I think that the exercise in exploring it is valuable. If you don't think that the question leads me/you/us down a good path, then great. But, rather than shutting down the value of the question, why not share why you would discourage that course?

    I truly enjoy reading your thoughts, @kenaces, and I think that our conversation would be far better off hearing your thoughts rather than dismissiveness.

    Sorry, I didn't mean to be dismissive, and my intention is to have you and others on these forums not waste time going rabits holes of study that are a waste of time.

    Strong player just don't open limp! There are lots of reasons but a few are:
    - limping allows blinds to realize their equity for cheap(SB) or free(BB)
    - limping doesn't help create the extra fold equity that make the raise and CB game so profitable
    - limping caps your range, and weakens your raise ranges
    - limping doesn't give you chance to improve your position (ie you limp and BTN and/or CO overlimps with hands that might have folded to your raise giving you the BTN)
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,639 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2018
    kenaces wrote: »
    Strong player just don't open limp!

    Some of them do actually. But usually they're playing in strong games, not against $1/3 rec/weak players.

    Every reason you gave makes assumptions about game conditions that you shouldn't be making in general. If game conditions makes different priorities important, then they each start going out the window in terms of profitability. It's not rocket science - everyone should be able to imagine games where other priorities are more important.

  • kenaceskenaces Red Chipper Posts: 1,387 ✭✭✭✭
    I suspect you and I have different ideas of "strong players". So I will revise my remarks and say that VERY strong players don't limp, and also don't spend much if any time at 1/3 tables.

    Giving free equity to blinds, not capping oneself, maximizing FE and position are all thinks that matter in almost any game condition.

    Sure we can create some special cases(ie all in every hand lunatic on our left) where we want to LRR our entire range but this are rare/special cases.

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