Having problems with folding strong made hands post flop in microstakes

Robertas VasiliauskasRobertas Vasiliauskas Red Chipper Posts: 7 ✭✭
Hey. I have a massive leaks in my post-flop games. I'm very tight and disciplined player, and I think that's why almost all of my money come from pre-flop play (shoving/reshoving, understanding ranges etc). If I could fix my post-flop game. I think I could become much more better player. Anyways there are these similar situations post-flop when I either flop top pair/top kicker, two pair. I'm not quite that player to check when I have something and let my opponents to see a free card (yes I sometimes do it just to balance my game, but it's just sometimes).
Some classic examples of how I lose my entire stack post-flop:

I flop top pair top kicker, I bet/cbet and my opponent either reraises me big or reraises all in. And it's really hard for me to lay that down hand so I just call his all in thinking that he'll have nothing or he must be bluffing, because I saw him bluff previously with nothing and now I assume that he'll bluff me 100% of the times we meet post-flop.
Or a really common situation I flop again top pair top kicker board is something like (Ad7s2h) and I have a hand like ACE KING and at pre-flop I give my opponent certain range with which he'll call my raise. I bet either 2 streets or 3 streets for value against draw non heavy board and my opponent shows up with two pair like A7o for example.
Another really classic example would be:
I flop top pair with top kicker again, board is draw heavy for example (Ad8d9s)
I bet/cbet really big on the flop to protect my ace against any kind of draws, guy still call me and I give him a range like AT+ because what would call my big flop bet? Scare card comes on the turn or river which would either complete flush or some straights, pot is already really big and a guy just goes all in so I call and lose all of my money.

I dont know if it's some kind of mental blockage. For me it's so hard to believe that other guy will ACTUALLY HAVE something after seeing so much of questionable plays in microstakes I found it hard to convince myself that the guy has something or was on some kind of draw even though I gave him pretty bad pot odds to continue and that draw hits I just dont believe he has it, and in the proccess of that I lose all of my money.

Any advice would be appreciated, this problem probably is mental related as well as poker related. Thank you for reading.

Comments

  • Skors3Skors3 Red Chipper Posts: 666 ✭✭✭
    My initial thoughts are about how you get into these situations. And what other TPTK hands you hold.

    Are you always holding AK? Are you sometimes talking about hands like A9? And on what boards? on 987? on 952? There are differences here.

    How did A7o get to play post flop? Are you calling with AK? Are you raising enough pre?

    What kind of stack sizes are there in these spots?

    There are lots of other questions but I think these are things to consider. At least as a start.
  • Robertas VasiliauskasRobertas Vasiliauskas Red Chipper Posts: 7 ✭✭
    edited March 2018
    Skors3 wrote: »
    My initial thoughts are about how you get into these situations. And what other TPTK hands you hold.

    Are you always holding AK? Are you sometimes talking about hands like A9? And on what boards? on 987? on 952? There are differences here.

    How did A7o get to play post flop? Are you calling with AK? Are you raising enough pre?

    What kind of stack sizes are there in these spots?

    There are lots of other questions but I think these are things to consider. At least as a start.

    I always raise or reraise with AK. My standard open raises early are 3x/4xBB. Once i get into middle stages and have stack somewhere between 50-65BB i'll raise 2xBB/3xBB. Stack sizes will always be different, but my question wasn't on a specific situation but more on a general leak of mine. This leak occurs in a lot of different situations and a lot of different stack sizes, the most general thing about this that it happens when I flop strong value hand and a guy who's aggressive reraises me to all in on turn/river, my first thoughts after he reraises or goes all in that he's bluffing and I just cant fold the same discipline that I have in pre-flop in these types of situations at post-flop. I don't thin its poker think, I think it's more mental thing than poker thing. I just would like to know how can I lay down really strong hands post flop against someone who's really bluffing a lot and how can I respect someone like that?
    And also it's really hard to think in terms of ranges, with what my opponent goes all in here, because you can't really put people on a range in microstakes, at least in my own experience, like I said, people will show up with the type of hands that'll make you go wow.
  • Skors3Skors3 Red Chipper Posts: 666 ✭✭✭
    Are we speaking of cash or tournaments here?
  • Robertas VasiliauskasRobertas Vasiliauskas Red Chipper Posts: 7 ✭✭
    Skors3 wrote: »
    Are we speaking of cash or tournaments here?

    MTT's
  • tripletiretripletire Red Chipper Posts: 323 ✭✭✭
    edited March 2018
    It's important to know whether or not you're concerned about value betting into a better hand, or are calling raises, not capable of laying down the hand strengths you mentioned.

    For example: AK on the A72r, you triple barrel and just get called down by A7 after the board bricks out.

    OR

    You open 76s from the SB and BB calls. Flop comes 976r, you triple barrel on a 4, J runout, and the BB raises the river. Do you call here often? Similar spots?


    Is it both of those spots that you think you're losing money in?
  • Robertas VasiliauskasRobertas Vasiliauskas Red Chipper Posts: 7 ✭✭
    tripletire wrote: »
    It's important to know whether or not you're concerned about value betting into a better hand, or are calling raises, not capable of laying down the hand strengths you mentioned.

    For example: AK on the A72r, you triple barrel and just get called down by A7 after the board bricks out.

    OR

    You open 76s from the SB and BB calls. Flop comes 976r, you triple barrel on a 4, J runout, and the BB raises the river. Do you call here often? Similar spots?


    Is it both of those spots that you think you're losing money in?

    Yes, I think in both of these spots I end up losing money. Especially after I bet big on the flop so he can't chase his draws, bet big on the turn again, and river is a scare card which completes straights/flushes, but it's hard for me to put him on that because the guy called with such a bad pot odds so I just end up paying him off every time he reraises me on the turn or river.
  • FishyFishy20FishyFishy20 Red Chipper Posts: 44 ✭✭
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭✭
    @Robertas Vasiliauskas: Thanks for posting, and thanks for your honesty and openness to suggestions.

    I'll take a stab at leaks or inconsistencies that I noticed in your post.
    Hey. I have a massive leaks in my post-flop games. I'm very tight and disciplined player, and I think that's why almost all of my money come from pre-flop play (shoving/reshoving, understanding ranges etc). If I could fix my post-flop game. I think I could become much more better player. Anyways there are these similar situations post-flop when I either flop top pair/top kicker, two pair. I'm not quite that player to check when I have something and let my opponents to see a free card (yes I sometimes do it just to balance my game, but it's just sometimes).

    I think that you need to consider the relationship between a tight opening range and board coverage. With such a tight (i.e., strong) opening range, you almost always have a value hand. In other words, you're likely to be putting a lot of money -- or everything -- in when you hit or have an overpair. That means that opponents have incredible implied odds against you. One of the challenges that players face with implied odds hands is the unreliability of getting paid off. Against you, that's not as big a factor, so you could get called much wider.

    I flop top pair top kicker, I bet/cbet and my opponent either reraises me big or reraises all in. And it's really hard for me to lay that down hand so I just call his all in thinking that he'll have nothing or he must be bluffing, because I saw him bluff previously with nothing and now I assume that he'll bluff me 100% of the times we meet post-flop.

    Give credit to other opponents that they have a reason for their play and that their play against someone else might not be the same as their play against you. You're essentially saying that, because V did something one time against someone else, he will certainly do the same thing against you another time. Sounds like V set you up...

    It also sounds, as you wrote yourself, that you struggle with letting go your bigger hands.

    Try this: imagine that you had second pair in this situation (e.g., JJ on a KT5r board) rather than top pair, top kicker (e.g., AK on a KT5r board). How would you play it? Yes, you have a good hand either way. But, V is repping a reaaaaally strong hand with his raise. Odds are that both AK and JJ are in the same situation -- way ahead (maybe facing a straight draw) or way behind. Is V really making this move with, say, KJ? Most players arent... So, next time, imagine that your hand is JJ. Are you calling or folding? Because your AK does have more equity but not a ton more equity here.

    Or a really common situation I flop again top pair top kicker board is something like (Ad7s2h) and I have a hand like ACE KING and at pre-flop I give my opponent certain range with which he'll call my raise. I bet either 2 streets or 3 streets for value against draw non heavy board and my opponent shows up with two pair like A7o for example.

    Relative cooler here. But, I would consider again my first point: maybe other players are willing to play hands like A7o against you since they know that, if they hit, they'll get paid off?


    Another really classic example would be:
    I flop top pair with top kicker again, board is draw heavy for example (Ad8d9s)
    I bet/cbet really big on the flop to protect my ace against any kind of draws, guy still call me and I give him a range like AT+ because what would call my big flop bet? Scare card comes on the turn or river which would either complete flush or some straights, pot is already really big and a guy just goes all in so I call and lose all of my money.

    Lots of confusion here. You don't bet here to "protect" your ace; you bet here to extract value from hands that you are ahead of and likely to be ahead of later. You also identify how likely it is for V to be on a draw. Does this V call with draws hoping to get paid off if he hits? Then you have an easy exploitative fold if/when it hits. Or does this V like to raise with draws trying to take advantage of fold equity? Then, if V calls, he's likely on Ax or even second pair and trying to catch you bluffing at the pot.

    In either case, V's range is muuuuuch wider than AT+. Most players wouldn't fold any flush draw or most straight draws. I'm not saying that that's good or bad. But, if bet, say, 3/4 pot, then do you really expect V holding KJd to fold? Or 76d? Or even JTh?

    I dont know if it's some kind of mental blockage. For me it's so hard to believe that other guy will ACTUALLY HAVE something after seeing so much of questionable plays in microstakes I found it hard to convince myself that the guy has something or was on some kind of draw even though I gave him pretty bad pot odds to continue and that draw hits I just dont believe he has it, and in the proccess of that I lose all of my money.

    If and when you get the label of calling-down-big-bets-not-believing-that-the-other-guy-has-it, then you'll get value-owned and stacked all the time. I agree: part of it is mental. Another part is improving your reading of V's ranges and the board to find better spots to call down and the better spots to fold.


    I hope that this doesn't come off as too critical. These were things that I saw (and I'm happy to be corrected on them), and I would feel less helpful not mentioning them. The good news -- and this really is the most important thing!! -- is that you seem open to asking critical questions and accepting that you have room to learn and grow. We would all be (and I especially include myself here) far greater poker players were we to all do that! :)
  • Robertas VasiliauskasRobertas Vasiliauskas Red Chipper Posts: 7 ✭✭
    @Robertas Vasiliauskas: Thanks for posting, and thanks for your honesty and openness to suggestions.

    I'll take a stab at leaks or inconsistencies that I noticed in your post.
    Hey. I have a massive leaks in my post-flop games. I'm very tight and disciplined player, and I think that's why almost all of my money come from pre-flop play (shoving/reshoving, understanding ranges etc). If I could fix my post-flop game. I think I could become much more better player. Anyways there are these similar situations post-flop when I either flop top pair/top kicker, two pair. I'm not quite that player to check when I have something and let my opponents to see a free card (yes I sometimes do it just to balance my game, but it's just sometimes).

    I think that you need to consider the relationship between a tight opening range and board coverage. With such a tight (i.e., strong) opening range, you almost always have a value hand. In other words, you're likely to be putting a lot of money -- or everything -- in when you hit or have an overpair. That means that opponents have incredible implied odds against you. One of the challenges that players face with implied odds hands is the unreliability of getting paid off. Against you, that's not as big a factor, so you could get called much wider.

    I flop top pair top kicker, I bet/cbet and my opponent either reraises me big or reraises all in. And it's really hard for me to lay that down hand so I just call his all in thinking that he'll have nothing or he must be bluffing, because I saw him bluff previously with nothing and now I assume that he'll bluff me 100% of the times we meet post-flop.

    Give credit to other opponents that they have a reason for their play and that their play against someone else might not be the same as their play against you. You're essentially saying that, because V did something one time against someone else, he will certainly do the same thing against you another time. Sounds like V set you up...

    It also sounds, as you wrote yourself, that you struggle with letting go your bigger hands.

    Try this: imagine that you had second pair in this situation (e.g., JJ on a KT5r board) rather than top pair, top kicker (e.g., AK on a KT5r board). How would you play it? Yes, you have a good hand either way. But, V is repping a reaaaaally strong hand with his raise. Odds are that both AK and JJ are in the same situation -- way ahead (maybe facing a straight draw) or way behind. Is V really making this move with, say, KJ? Most players arent... So, next time, imagine that your hand is JJ. Are you calling or folding? Because your AK does have more equity but not a ton more equity here.

    Or a really common situation I flop again top pair top kicker board is something like (Ad7s2h) and I have a hand like ACE KING and at pre-flop I give my opponent certain range with which he'll call my raise. I bet either 2 streets or 3 streets for value against draw non heavy board and my opponent shows up with two pair like A7o for example.

    Relative cooler here. But, I would consider again my first point: maybe other players are willing to play hands like A7o against you since they know that, if they hit, they'll get paid off?


    Another really classic example would be:
    I flop top pair with top kicker again, board is draw heavy for example (Ad8d9s)
    I bet/cbet really big on the flop to protect my ace against any kind of draws, guy still call me and I give him a range like AT+ because what would call my big flop bet? Scare card comes on the turn or river which would either complete flush or some straights, pot is already really big and a guy just goes all in so I call and lose all of my money.

    Lots of confusion here. You don't bet here to "protect" your ace; you bet here to extract value from hands that you are ahead of and likely to be ahead of later. You also identify how likely it is for V to be on a draw. Does this V call with draws hoping to get paid off if he hits? Then you have an easy exploitative fold if/when it hits. Or does this V like to raise with draws trying to take advantage of fold equity? Then, if V calls, he's likely on Ax or even second pair and trying to catch you bluffing at the pot.

    In either case, V's range is muuuuuch wider than AT+. Most players wouldn't fold any flush draw or most straight draws. I'm not saying that that's good or bad. But, if bet, say, 3/4 pot, then do you really expect V holding KJd to fold? Or 76d? Or even JTh?

    I dont know if it's some kind of mental blockage. For me it's so hard to believe that other guy will ACTUALLY HAVE something after seeing so much of questionable plays in microstakes I found it hard to convince myself that the guy has something or was on some kind of draw even though I gave him pretty bad pot odds to continue and that draw hits I just dont believe he has it, and in the proccess of that I lose all of my money.

    If and when you get the label of calling-down-big-bets-not-believing-that-the-other-guy-has-it, then you'll get value-owned and stacked all the time. I agree: part of it is mental. Another part is improving your reading of V's ranges and the board to find better spots to call down and the better spots to fold.


    I hope that this doesn't come off as too critical. These were things that I saw (and I'm happy to be corrected on them), and I would feel less helpful not mentioning them. The good news -- and this really is the most important thing!! -- is that you seem open to asking critical questions and accepting that you have room to learn and grow. We would all be (and I especially include myself here) far greater poker players were we to all do that! :)

    Thank you for your advice. You have some solid points. I'll keep everything you said in mind, and try to work on it.
  • tripletiretripletire Red Chipper Posts: 323 ✭✭✭
    Do you see the contradiction in logic when you discount weak draws, then end up paying off on a very interactive runout with the argument that he can't have draws that got there? Why can't he have a set, or a higher 2pair? Why can't he have those draws you were discounting, are you just projecting what you think you'd call there from the flop?
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,670 ✭✭✭✭✭
    One pair usually isn't worth your stack, regardless of your kicker. Uncess you're short stacked of course. I would work on planning the hand out better so you're not playing one pair hands for so much money, on average.
  • dnoyeBdnoyeB DetroitRed Chipper Posts: 284 ✭✭
    That's me. The non-believer. To instill discipline I keep track with this sticky note

    n4xw2q1hyrmk.jpg
  • Idan TshabesIdan Tshabes Red Chipper Posts: 5 ✭✭
    hi to all.
    i think that in the micro stacks most of the players are not thinking players
    and they are not thinking about ranges and geting into pots with very wird hands
    weak hands and they are calling with evrything.
    in the micro stacks one have to play a tite rang dont bluff very often unless you have a very solid raed on v about his folding tendencis.
    the varians in those games are very big.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,670 ✭✭✭✭✭
    That's an easy generalization to make but in my experience there are microstakes grinders who take the game very seriously. They are starting at .01/.02 simply because they're building a bankroll and learning and moving up "the right way". Of course there are bad player everywhere but don't assume microstakes players are all call station fishes.
  • KristosKristos Red Chipper Posts: 44 ✭✭
    As a .02nl grinder learning the trade, I agree with jeffnc. I run into a lot of (what I consider) competent players and see a decent amount of bluffing, which is contrary to popular myth.

    Robertas Vasiliauskas, how many tables are you playing? I found that when I stepped up to playing multiple tables (I currently play 4), it made the game less personal. I look at my cards, the opponents stats and the general lay of the land: I make my play and move on to the next table needing attention. No time to over-think about a particular opponent or situation. I found when playing one table I would over analyze opponents actions and intentions, and would end up making assumptions that were not based in reality. Too much time to think and conjure up crazy ideas , I guess...

    My stats (and win rate) clearly show I play a far more solid poker game with multiple tables, as opposed to one. Maybe this will help you not worry so much about one particular V's actions, and let your training , studying and experience take over your thought process.

    "Under pressure, we don't rise to the occasion, we fall to the level of our training". I heard Alex Assassinato Fitzgerald use this quote on his RCP webinar, and it is the truth.
  • Robertas VasiliauskasRobertas Vasiliauskas Red Chipper Posts: 7 ✭✭
    Kristos wrote: »
    As a .02nl grinder learning the trade, I agree with jeffnc. I run into a lot of (what I consider) competent players and see a decent amount of bluffing, which is contrary to popular myth.

    Robertas Vasiliauskas, how many tables are you playing? I found that when I stepped up to playing multiple tables (I currently play 4), it made the game less personal. I look at my cards, the opponents stats and the general lay of the land: I make my play and move on to the next table needing attention. No time to over-think about a particular opponent or situation. I found when playing one table I would over analyze opponents actions and intentions, and would end up making assumptions that were not based in reality. Too much time to think and conjure up crazy ideas , I guess...

    My stats (and win rate) clearly show I play a far more solid poker game with multiple tables, as opposed to one. Maybe this will help you not worry so much about one particular V's actions, and let your training , studying and experience take over your thought process.

    "Under pressure, we don't rise to the occasion, we fall to the level of our training". I heard Alex Assassinato Fitzgerald use this quote on his RCP webinar, and it is the truth.

    I play up to 4 tables.
  • Darren DirtDarren Dirt Red Chipper Posts: 30 ✭✭
    edited April 2018
    IMO play a ton of hands post-flop with ranges more along the lines of your opponets' looser ranges, where you can play more streets to get a "feel" for how often they are hitting various board textures. So it doesn't cost you much play 2nl Zoom, preferably 6max so you aren't only going to be facing 10% vpip range like at fullring.

    Now the shoes are swapped, imagine your opponent has TPTK or overpair with little chance of improving. How often are you floating and bluffing, compared to drawing with implied odds then [check-]raising for value against a nitty face up range?

    You could also do this with tools like Flopzilla but I find sometimes manual/visual practice makes reality "stick" a little better. Can be a good reminder that even "bad" players are probably calling OTF with *some* kind of live cards to beat one pair -- and that means 8%-20% of the time the turn will be one of those cards. And mega-tabling micro stakes Russians are likely not doing big pot bluffs; neither are live passive players.

    Also in general if your big "value" bet OTT/OTR makes it tough for you emotionally to fold to a raise, maybe consider reducing the size so you get more value from wider ranges to make up for those bet-fold situations -- e.g. a 33% river (or turn) bet is not going to be bluff-raised much more often than a 75% size but will definitely be called more often.

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