Calling range in multi-way pots

Phil EbbsPhil Ebbs Red Chipper Posts: 93 ✭✭
edited March 27 in Live Poker Hands
First off, just wanted to say thanks to all the commenters who have taken the time to respond to my posts on the Red Chip Forum! I became a member a couple months ago, and hearing input from other players has been really useful. I've been trying to post a hand from each session where I think I might be making mistakes and trying to improve from y'all's feedback. Here's one:

This hand highlights a question I'd like comments on: how much tighter should our calling ranges be in multi-way pots?
Playing at a relatively loose 2/5 table, lots of preflop calling. Effective stack sizes are $500.

Hero is UTG+1 with 9h9d, raises to $20, gets a MP call, Villain (not a lot of info, hasn't played a ton of hands, but isn't afraid to 3bet) in LP calls, and the BB (very loose, bluffy player) comes along.

Pot: $82
Flop: TsTcTd
BB leads out for $40. Hero calls, MP folds, LP calls.

Turn: Jh
BB checks, Hero checks, LP bets $50, BB folds, Hero calls.

River: Qs
Hero checks, LP bets $50, Hero folds

A quick comment from observing the villain, and a couple questions:
Comment: JJ-AA are not in Villain's range here, as he would be 3betting preflop. Also, the only tens Hero has here is AhTh, and 88 is the lowest pocket pair that Hero has in his range.

Questions:
1. I just have no good intuition for how much more tightly to play in multi-way pots. Obviously, I should be folding more of my range given that LP bet into two players, but I don't know how much more. Does anyone have good resources or reading on multi-way pots and continuation ranges?
2. What hands are good hands to call down three streets? On the flop, 99 seems just as strong as AA since they are all ahead of the field's non-T ranges, but given the runout, maybe JJ is a good call-call-call hand? QQ-AA is probably raising the flop (but, even as I say that, I'm not sure that's a good strategy, because AA is just as strong as 99 on the flop, given opponent's capped range.)
3. I'm assuming that because I literally only have 1 combo with a ten here, that I am never X-raising on turn or river. Does that seem too tight? Would I be playing too scared with JJ?
4. Any other comments on the hand?

Comments

  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 1,678 ✭✭✭✭
    Phil Ebbs wrote: »
    1. I just have no good intuition for how much more tightly to play in multi-way pots.
    First of all, you do not want to play MW pot. Especially OOP. You are kinda forced to play fit-or-fold if it goes multiway (because hard to bluff and make X opponent fold). You lose implieds odds by being OOP.

    If you open 20 and find 4 callers, try open 25, 30, 35. Use the pain threshold to put them in difficult spots and let them make costly mistakes.
    Realize your hand and strategy heads-up or 3-way.
    Phil Ebbs wrote: »
    2. What hands are good hands to call down three streets? On the flop, 99 seems just as strong as AA since they are all ahead of the field's non-T ranges, but given the runout, maybe JJ is a good call-call-call hand?
    AA and 99 are really not the same, even tho both give you a boat. 99 doesn't like overcards to come (J-A), especially if Villain are prone to float. AA can see almost any card and still have the best boat.
    Phil Ebbs wrote: »
    2. What hands are good hands to call down three streets?
    It depends on Villain: what range do you give them. A loose-aggro Villain won't have the same range as a straightforward one or a NIT.
    Phil Ebbs wrote: »
    3. I'm assuming that because I literally only have 1 combo with a ten here,
    Why not opening with KTs ? (Ed Miller advocates for K9s+.) Or QTs? JTs? (T9s ? T8s?)
    Phil Ebbs wrote: »
    3. I'm assuming that because I literally only have 1 combo with a ten here, that I am never X-raising on turn or river. Does that seem too tight? Would I be playing too scared with JJ?
    It depends. You have to know WHY you're betting: to make worst hand call (value bet) or to make better hands fold (bluff).
    Which implies: you need to know what range you're targeting.

    Try answering your question yourself


  • Phil EbbsPhil Ebbs Red Chipper Posts: 93 ✭✭
    edited March 27

    If you open 20 and find 4 callers, try open 25, 30, 35. Use the pain threshold to put them in difficult spots and let them make costly mistakes.
    Realize your hand and strategy heads-up or 3-way.




    Quick question on this: You ask "Why not opening with KTs ? (Ed Miller advocates for K9s+.) Or QTs? JTs? (T9s ? T8s?)" (Note that JTs isn't available on this board.) If I start trying to open to 25,30, or even 35, I am definitely going to have to tighten up my range, right? I feel like if I am opening to 6x the blinds, K9s or QTs feels pretty vulnerable to light 3betting. Maybe I'm overthinking it, but one of the reasons I play such a tight range in EP is because I'm already opening to more than 3x the blinds, and I want to play a tighter range with larger openings. Am I thinking about that correctly?

    Thanks!

  • EazzyEazzy Red Chipper Posts: 914 ✭✭✭✭
    I happen to disagree with the idea of betting bigger to stop players from playing badly. 3 or 4 wrongs do not make a right IMO. Learn to play multiway pots. Sure you can't bluff as much in them, but you gain hugely by your value equity...and you can bluff from time to time.

    Most players play these pots very ABC which makes hand reading easy.

    So now to this hand....a bluffy BB player bets out into the original raiser and 2 other players...Well he's bluffly, he is probably never doing this with a made hand...so I put him on a bluff a lot no problem calling....

    and the LP villain calls, this is worry some. He has seen a bet (though by a loose player) a call by the original raiser.....and he still calls. Ok, this could be a T or a pair probably smaller then QQ (if he 3 bets)...could be thinking he has the odds with AQ type hand....

    But here's the thing, this is not a spot players tend to float planning to take the pot away later...its multi way....and he seen action by two players in front...though not big action.

    now it gets checked to him on the turn...and he bets again...50 into 200 pot...he's not trying to steal....either he's blocking with a smaller pair or has a T...probably never AK type hand...

    River a Q and he bets again...but silly small....He likely to be checking back all the hands you beat...small pairs.....if he were bluffing he would make it bigger....

    Sure you have two kind of opposite principles here a Trips board...players may get silly on...but a muti way board players play very ABC..... my guess is your getting 50 into 350 because he has a big hand...Eh...nobody bluffs this way he wants you calling with an A but its sick..

    The point though is multi way pots tend to play very very ABC....watch for the exception...some players (I'm one) will take stabs often after the original raiser checks, and some will make silly lbuffs on the river if it checks a bunch....but other then that or a maniac...reading them is easy.
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,818 ✭✭✭✭
    For what it's worth, I can't say that I agree with @Red or with @Eazzy :). I don't think that multi-way pots are "good" or "bad". They are the result of the tactics that you choose when playing at your table.

    Are there specific opponents that you have noticed have a tendency to shy away from committing their stacks? Those are opponents that you want to try to isolate by raising big over their limp and/or 3betting: you can outplay them heads-up. In those cases, you cards are less important than your ability to read their range and how that connects with the flop. You'll be able to pressure them out of enough pots that your cards become secondary to your ability to exploit your opponent.

    (And, in answer to your question, @Phil Ebbs, you don't necessarily need to tighten your range when opening for more. Remember, the goal is to isolate and attack a player. In other words, you want to get into MORE pots heads-up with this player, not fewer! One word of caution: be careful of stack sizes when you start to increase your pre-flop raising -- you want to insure that you can apply multiple streets of serious pressure.)


    On the other hand, you might have a table where lots of players like to see hands but fold on the flop unless they hit. In those cases, multi-way pots can be verrrrrry profitable. If and when you do meet resistance, you'll want to pot-control. At this point, you'll have to be attuned very closely to each opponent's bluffing and value-betting tendencies. The key to multi-way pots is that you need to play your hand equity far more than in a heads-up pot.


    On to the hand in question: Do you have a solid hold on this V -- his bluffing and value-betting tendencies? If not, then I would happily call the river. Why?

    1) You folded -- to a $50 bet into a $350 pot. If you are willing to do that, then it's an auto-profit for V to bet any two cards. In fact, you would be playing exactly like everyone else in a multi-way pot: folding unless you have a monster. And this V could easily be exploiting that (remember: if you are going to play multi-way pots, then you want to exploit others who are doing this!)!

    2) If he had a made hand, then he likely left value on the table somewhere. And you should be thankful: it only costs you $50 more to be able to begin to paint the picture on V's betting tendencies. Hell, say that V shoved on the river. You would have NO idea where you stood, and calling down erroneously would cost you your stack. While this might be a brilliant value bet by V (obviously not, since you folded), it didn't apply any real pressure to you.

    So, I'd call: either your ahead of a potential auto-profit river bet by V and you win or you get a baseline for V's play for about as little as you could expect.
  • SullySully Red Chipper Posts: 726 ✭✭✭
    edited March 28
    I would have raised the flop
  • kenaceskenaces Red Chipper Posts: 1,366 ✭✭✭✭
    Phil Ebbs wrote: »
    Questions:
    1. I just have no good intuition for how much more tightly to play in multi-way pots. Obviously, I should be folding more of my range given that LP bet into two players, but I don't know how much more. Does anyone have good resources or reading on multi-way pots and continuation ranges?

    You will rarely be making big mistakes by playing very tight in 4W+ pots. I would suggest just playing very tight on the flop in these spots, and then watching lots of showdowns.

    Sometimes I will plug some ranges into propokertools and "ask it" how often at least one player has TP+ on flop XXX. I used to try to build models in CREV but it would take so much time for not much return. I like using poker snowie but it's assumptions about preflop ranges in MW pots are super tight compared to what you opponents actually doing.

    I have yet to see any really good resources on MW pots. It is interesting that today's poker software lets us get really good answers in HU pots but still leaves a lot to be desired in post flop MW pots.



  • kenaceskenaces Red Chipper Posts: 1,366 ✭✭✭✭
    Phil Ebbs wrote: »
    Maybe I'm overthinking it, but one of the reasons I play such a tight range in EP is because I'm already opening to more than 3x the blinds, and I want to play a tighter range with larger openings. Am I thinking about that correctly?

    You are on the right path with playing tight from the first 3-4 seats, and opening 4-5x as your default.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 1,678 ✭✭✭✭
    kenaces wrote: »
    Phil Ebbs wrote: »
    Questions:
    1. I just have no good intuition for how much more tightly to play in multi-way pots. Obviously, I should be folding more of my range given that LP bet into two players, but I don't know how much more. Does anyone have good resources or reading on multi-way pots and continuation ranges?

    You will rarely be making big mistakes by playing very tight in 4W+ pots. I would suggest just playing very tight on the flop in these spots, and then watching lots of showdowns.
    Problem is, in my humble opinion, that by following this guideline you're making preflop mistakes.
    You are putting money in the middle pre, then overfolding postflop / on the flop; which makes it a -EV preflop call. Even by playing "only" straightforwardly fit-or-fold postflop, instead of "very tight", is imho -EV as we hit (strong enough) too few times.

    Exception is if Villains are super sticky and you have great implied odds aka you will be able to stack them easily when you hit. Then the return on investment justify the preflop call. But these are specific table dynamic / Villains; I lived it only in Budapest/Hungary - USA is mostly the total opposite.
  • kenaceskenaces Red Chipper Posts: 1,366 ✭✭✭✭
    Red wrote: »
    kenaces wrote: »
    Phil Ebbs wrote: »
    Questions:
    1. I just have no good intuition for how much more tightly to play in multi-way pots. Obviously, I should be folding more of my range given that LP bet into two players, but I don't know how much more. Does anyone have good resources or reading on multi-way pots and continuation ranges?

    You will rarely be making big mistakes by playing very tight in 4W+ pots. I would suggest just playing very tight on the flop in these spots, and then watching lots of showdowns.
    Problem is, in my humble opinion, that by following this guideline you're making preflop mistakes.
    You are putting money in the middle pre, then overfolding postflop / on the flop; which makes it a -EV preflop call. Even by playing "only" straightforwardly fit-or-fold postflop, instead of "very tight", is imho -EV as we hit (strong enough) too few times.
    .

    I don't understand what you mean?

    "-EV pre flop call" - I didn't say anything about CC ranges in EP as we were talking about RFI.

    If you open a tight/strong range and play lots of 4W pots - why do you think we will over fold? If I take my 10% range vs 3 other player's capped 20% ranges I will hit flop more and better than opponents and do just fine even playing tight on the flop.

    I think at least 1/2 the problem with this discussion is our definitions of "tight", "very tight", "fit/fold"...... All these terms are very vague. I was just was just trying to give OP the basic concept that one has to play a more equity driven range post flop in these MW spots as fold equity is much lower than in HU pots.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 1,678 ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 29
    @kenaces : yes sorry. Let me present my point more clearly :)

    It comes from that part
    kenaces wrote: »
    Phil Ebbs wrote: »
    Questions:
    1. I just have no good intuition for how much more tightly to play in multi-way pots. Obviously, I should be folding more of my range given that LP bet into two players, but I don't know how much more. Does anyone have good resources or reading on multi-way pots and continuation ranges?

    You will rarely be making big mistakes by playing very tight in 4W+ pots. I would suggest just playing very tight on the flop in these spots, and then watching lots of showdowns.

    I assume that "by playing very tight" you mean "to continue postflop when you hit the flop with the top of your range". Or at least you hit the flop well enough.

    But when you look at how a range hit a flop, you're going to hit TP+ ~33%* of the time ( and hit ~38% if you includes OESD, gutshot+pair and nut FD).
    And this is when we have an uncapped range from being preflop raiser - giving us all possible overpairs and TPTK - as we lose 5% of "hit the flop" with a calling range (bc we 3bet QQ+/AKs preflop).

    And we still gotta have to fold more / lose the hand when our holding is not nutted: when the board isn't ours (like AhAd on 876 or on T73ccs) or we face heavy action from other playerS.

    My point was this: if I put money in the pot preflop, I don't want to fold 60%+ on the flop just because I "have to" play straightforwardly on the flop as we are in a multiway pot. If we are not able to get a lot of chips when we hit (which I doubt on a US poker table, rather tight), this leads us IMHO having a -EV preflop play.

    ---
    *These number will change based on how loose you play pre. Here I used a tight 10-11% range (22+, AJ+, KQ). Number are sliiiightly better with a more broadway heavy range (77+, AT+, KQ, KJs) as we have fewer underpairs to fold.
  • kenaceskenaces Red Chipper Posts: 1,366 ✭✭✭✭
    Red wrote: »
    *These number will change based on how loose you play pre. Here I used a tight 10-11% range (22+, AJ+, KQ). Number are sliiiightly better with a more broadway heavy range (77+, AT+, KQ, KJs) as we have fewer underpairs to fold.

    This is a clue about how to best construct you pre flop range :)

    If you are in 4W+ pot and OOP to several players you have to CB less and XF more than in HU pots.

    Beyond that I am not sure how to respond to the rest of your post as again your idea to "tight" and mine might be different.

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