2 Interesting 1/3 Hands

sandhu31sandhu31 Red Chipper Posts: 49 ✭✭
2 fun hands from last night at 1/3. Good table with lots of action.

1st hand ~700 effective:

-Hero looks at :AC: :AS: in mp. Normally I always raise for balance but there's lots of raising behind me almost every hand so I limp and plan on 3 betting for value and to narrow the field.
-Sure enough CO raises to 15 and 3 players call.
-Hero makes it 60 and CO and SB call.

Flop: :AH: :8C: :6D:
-Checks through (Don't want to fold out other pairs and not afraid of giving a free card on such a dry board. Villains also can't have much here other than set of 8s or 6s so it gives them an opportunity to bluff on the turn)

Turn: :7S:
-Sb check, Hero bets 75, and only CO calls

River: :4H:
-Hero bets 125
-Villain raises to 275, Hero calls.
*Not my favorite card but I can beat some of his value hands like sets. He's not the type to bluff on the river. Only 55 and 75 get there. What do you think about my line?

2nd hand:

-MP raises to 15
-Hero calls on the B with :JD: :TD:, and blinds both call

Flop: :QS: :9D: :8C:
-SB leads for 50 (same villain as last hand)
-Others fold and Hero flat calls

Turn: :JC:
-Villain checks and Hero bets 50
-Villain calls

River: :QH:
-Villain leads for 75 and Hero calls
*Looking back, I think I need to size bigger on the turn even though it might scare him away? I prefer to flat and keep my range wide on the flop and allow him to keep barreling on bricks. Again, what do you guys think of my line?

I'll tell you guys what he had later if anyone wants to know. Cheers!

Comments

  • NYCRyNYCRy Red Chipper Posts: 318 ✭✭✭
    Hand #1: Personally I'm making it bigger preflop($80-$100). Definitely checking the flop. Betting bigger on the turn(65-75% of pot). Haven't figured out what these hypothetical adjustments do to stack sizes, but if we make it to the river here I'm either check/calling or bet/folding depending on villians tendencies
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,308 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited March 29
    You're thinking of some good things, but at this table you might be overthinking it. The only thing we know about the other players is that this is low stakes, and it's a "good table with lots of action". In general I don't like slowplaying.

    So in the first hand, you're looking for an excuse to slowplay. Well, you're right that it's a fairly dry board and usually they won't have much, but you have to get the money in when they do. There are more combos of hands that will play with you than you think. You're counting the sets - there are 6 combos of sets that will get it all in against you. There are 9 combos of AK/AQ/AJ that will put some money in surely. Then there 6 combos of A8/A6 that will get it in against you. There are 9 combos of 86, or 2 combos of 86s, that will get it in against you. There are 32 combos of 97/75, or 8 combos of 97s/75s.

    You make more money against these combos than you do hoping for someone to bluff a few bucks at you. You bet, they fold, so what? Next hand. The money is made when big hands collide.

    And so what happens? You give a free card and of course one of the worst cards you can see comes. Not only is the runout possibly beating you now, but it also scares away people with 86 or AJ, for example, from calling you if you're ahead.

    Second hand, I pound away at the flop (i.e. raise). Make them pay when they have a draw or anything else they'll pay with. If you give the opportunity for more cards to come, they could either beat you or tie you, or a scare card might make them stop paying when they're behind.

    At this level, simply give them the opportunity to make mistakes. Big hands, big pots.
  • Rich57Rich57 Red Chipper Posts: 96 ✭✭
    1st hand – I don’t normally limp pocket aces but in this case your logic worked to get in with a three bet. You have a pot of around 210 preflop. Your limp-raise looks strong but two players call anyway, SB may have come along for the odds once CO calls. Seems like your hope is to play for stacks. What ranges are you putting them on?
    On the flop, you hit the jackpot and back off a three streets hand to “not fold out other pairs”. Seems to me that if either caught a piece they are sticking around as they would likely do for a half pot bet in any case with second pair or better. I think your chances of losing value here by betting half pot are marginal.
    On the turn, you decide it is not worth stacks and bet one-third pot. Why, what are you putting them on? When V calls the turn, what is your plan for the river (pot 360)?
    Your one-third bet on the river looks like a TPTK or two pair hand to me and I am very likely going to raise for value with sets, straights and two pair with an A (you said he doesn’t bluff rivers). Certainly you have to call but you may have set yourself up for a beating.
    2d hand -same villain same session would depend a lot on how the first hand played out. In a vacuum, raise the flop
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,818 ✭✭✭✭
    Slow-playing, IMO, should be used as a deviation from the standard or in a unique circumstance (i.e., against a V who reliably takes multiple bluff-stabs at pots). In your case, it seems like you are slow-playing as your default rather than betting as a default. That's backwards -- especially at an "action table"!!
  • sandhu31sandhu31 Red Chipper Posts: 49 ✭✭
    Thanks guys. Yea I screwed myself both hands by slow playing. I think it was a reaction to my big bets not getting called when I played my hands straight up a few times recently and also playing 2/5 where it's more appropriate at times. Frustrating session, especially while on a downswing..but you live and you learn. Anyways, villain had :7C: :5C: in the 1st hand and :QD: :9C: in the 2nd hand.
  • jfarrow13jfarrow13 Red Chipper Posts: 1,193 ✭✭✭✭
    So while it's 2 coolers, as other pointed out in action tables I'm not limping, even for a limp raise. On the AA flop, I downsize my C-bet, I don't check it. This allows middling PP's to call, as well as other draws. Then I smash them on the turn. I don't care if they all fold on the flop. I've gotten away from the "I check all my monsters" philosophy, because if I always check my monsters and then C-bet my crap, well, that's quite easy to play against to any semi-observant player. In fact, most players WILL check their monsters, and so I'm wary of players who check flops and then come out swinging on later streets.


    On hand 2, you gotta raise it man. Yes, you have the nuts, but this board is so wet, and they will continue so often, that it's time to starting getting money in there. As played, river is a bleh call. Also think about if you would ever bluff-raise hands like 10-9? QJ? K10? What about 2 pairs? Lower sets? If you answer ya I wanna raise those hands, but not this hand, then your easy to play against. This hand is such a raise, and isn't ironclad like hand 1. Sure, hand 1 you got "sucked out" on, but this hand so many cards on the turn hurt you, it's time to start getting value now.
  • sandhu31sandhu31 Red Chipper Posts: 49 ✭✭
    Great analysis @jfarrow13, thanks!
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,486 ✭✭✭✭✭
    On a wild table ill increase my opening size to $20-$25 with my premiums. I will mix up limp reraise as well, usually im over limping then back raising on an aggro table. Limping first in and raising kinda turns your hand more face up. Depending on the stack sizes will determine a lot of my 3 bet sizing. For example if its $300 deep i think $60 is fine as you don't want them to fold. Stacks are deeper i usually only go as high as $75 (5x) but I've done squeezes with hands like AJo and A5s to $125 in similar spots as well as those hands benefit from more FE.

    Now post flop on A86 as @jfarrow13 stated just downsize your cbet. Pot is like ($195) with ($640 effective) I am betting around $55 here just quarter pot which I can do with QQ KK AA and AK as well.

    Turn would be $305 with 585 effective. Now as the board gets more draw heavy you can pump it up to like 150 making the river $605 with around $435 behind. Maybe half pot size bets work a little better. In the end just need to keep putting money in the pot.

    Hand #2
    SB donk bets $50 into $60 usually means a strong hand that is some what vulnerable. A lot of cards wil slow him down here. You wanna charge QT, QJ, 76s, AQ, type hands. I would preach raising the flop but I also have a bad habbit of slow playing here. You don't need to raise big just raise it to like $135 or so and start to build a pot to set up stacks.

    As played your turn sizing is ok. You bet around 1\3 pot to keep curious hands in, can go larger as i think sets are calling large bets and two pairs smaller bets.

    Try to avoid slow play and keep sizing around 35-60% pot unless player dynamics and ranges allow you to go smaller or larger. Even if you play face up players at 1\3 are generally not good enough to fold top pair, so two pairs for them are monsters and they are never folding. Let them give you their money.

    As played you might of saved some money given the effective stacks.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,308 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Austin wrote: »
    Limping first in and raising kinda turns your hand more face up.

    Try the move against a TAG thinking player with a hand that is not the "face up" hand. It works.

  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,486 ✭✭✭✭✭
    jeffnc wrote: »
    Austin wrote: »
    Limping first in and raising kinda turns your hand more face up.

    Try the move against a TAG thinking player with a hand that is not the "face up" hand. It works.

    Agree. Limp raise against fish with AA and KK. Limp raise Ak and Axs against tags.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,308 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I will also do it sometimes with a hand like 33 or 89s UTG, in a game with a couple good players, but also a lot of limping and paying off by stations. If no one raises or there is a small raise after and I can see a flop 4-5 ways, fine. If a tight player raises and he'll fold to my 3-bet obvious AA/KK, fine.
  • jfarrow13jfarrow13 Red Chipper Posts: 1,193 ✭✭✭✭
    About once or twice a session I’ll also limp re-raise hands that I wouldn’t normally open UTG but might want to see a flop with such as K10s or Q10s. I usually get the 3-bet through and if not these hands have good play ability. When everyone folds I show the K for good measure.

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