Losing less

NYCRyNYCRy Red Chipper Posts: 336 ✭✭✭
Obviously we want to lose as little as possible in pots where we are beat. Currently in spots where I'm pretty sure I'm behind I tend to raise early in the hand to end the guessing game, and I'm trying to figure out if this is best(currently play 1/3 with shots at 2/5) and what other lines to consider. For example:

V1 new to table - loose passive, openly high on marijuana. Has maybe $275
V2 new to table - tight passive doesn't seem to be under the influence. Covers V1
I think I had about $250 to start the hand.

Couple limps, I raise to $20 with AA in MP. V2 BU calls, V1 BB calls. Pot $60 after rake.

Flop Q77 rainbow.

BB checks, I check, BU bets $25, BB calls, I raise to $60, BU folds, BB ships for $230-ish. I pretty much snap fold AA face up and ask him to show me a bluff. He mucks without showing. Of course a table discussion immediately ensues. He tries to say he had KQ but after about a minute admits he had a 7. I don't know exactly how long he was at table, probably like a half hour and I remember I had not played a hand in a real long time before that AA so everyone's image of me at the table should be that I'm tight. So let's just assume he had a 7 here.

My plan for checking the flop was to induce a bluff and either check/call or check/raise depending on how the action went. Almost every time I play nowadays I hear someone say at some point "I put you on AK" so I've been checking lots of non A or K flops in this situation when I think people will fire with air based on that.

I feel like I'd get two streets, maybe 1 from a strong Q here if I bet flop so under-repping AA seems to make more sense.

Obv players are passive so if flop checks through its fine if it means they catch up a little and think I don't have anything.

I know I'm shallow here as well - going to experiment with a good 300-500hrs of a buying in short strategy.

Thoughts?

«1

Comments

  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 1,973 ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2018
    NYCRy wrote: »
    Flop Q77 rainbow.
    [...]
    BB checks, I check, BU bets $25, BB calls, I raise to $60, BU folds, BB ships for $230-ish. I pretty much snap fold AA face up and ask him to show me a bluff. He mucks without showing.
    [...]
    He tries to say he had KQ but after about a minute admits he had a 7.
    He mucks trips against overpair AA ? Am I the only one to find that bizarre?
  • NYCRyNYCRy Red Chipper Posts: 336 ✭✭✭
    Are you playing poker mostly recreationally, or do you want to improve and move up the stakes?

    Improve and move up
  • NYCRyNYCRy Red Chipper Posts: 336 ✭✭✭
    Red wrote: »
    NYCRy wrote: »
    Flop Q77 rainbow.
    [...]
    BB checks, I check, BU bets $25, BB calls, I raise to $60, BU folds, BB ships for $230-ish. I pretty much snap fold AA face up and ask him to show me a bluff. He mucks without showing.
    [...]
    He tries to say he had KQ but after about a minute admits he had a 7.
    He mucks trips against overpair AA ? Am I the only one to find that bizarre?

    I just meant he didn't show
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 1,973 ✭✭✭✭
    Otherwise, check-raising AA on Q77 ? I'm really no fan of it. You can't rep any bluff i.e. draw since no FD and no straight draws are possible - not even a gutshot. By C-R you're turning your hand face up for AQ/QQ+.

    Moreover: if you expect a bluff a) bad idea since it's a super dry board, so very little room for bluff. And b) you then want Villain to keep bluffing (firing with a wide range), so C-R would be against this goal.

    IMHO
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 1,973 ✭✭✭✭
    Maybe @Faustovaldez123 or @persuadeo could be of some help
  • RCP Coach - Fausto ValdezRCP Coach - Fausto Valdez RCP Coach Posts: 829 ✭✭✭✭
    @NYCRy there's no sense in learning how to play a short stack strategy for cash. This a form of poker where learning how to play through multiple possible options will benefit you in the long run. Especially as the session continues with growing stacks. The moment you decide to cash out because you have to much on the table, is the moment you do a major disservice to yourself and hinder your growth.

    This is not tournament poker where learning how to play short is important.
    COACHING NOW AVAILABLE HERE
  • kenaceskenaces Red Chipper Posts: 1,387 ✭✭✭✭
    NYCRy wrote: »
    Obviously we want to lose as little as possible in pots where we are beat. Currently in spots where I'm pretty sure I'm behind I tend to raise early in the hand to end the guessing game,

    Don't "raise to find out where you are at". Raising for information cost too much $ for the information, and the information isn't always honest(i.e. you raise your AA and some guy just jams his FD and you fold the best hand)
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,639 ✭✭✭✭✭
    @NYCRy there's no sense in learning how to play a short stack strategy for cash.

    Of course there is.
    The moment you decide to cash out because you have to much on the table, is the moment you do a major disservice to yourself and hinder your growth.

    Of course, but that's a different issue.

  • NYCRyNYCRy Red Chipper Posts: 336 ✭✭✭
    I buy in short. I don't leave when I build a stack
  • NYCRyNYCRy Red Chipper Posts: 336 ✭✭✭
    kenaces wrote: »
    NYCRy wrote: »
    Obviously we want to lose as little as possible in pots where we are beat. Currently in spots where I'm pretty sure I'm behind I tend to raise early in the hand to end the guessing game,

    Don't "raise to find out where you are at". Raising for information cost too much $ for the information, and the information isn't always honest(i.e. you raise your AA and some guy just jams his FD and you fold the best hand)

    I guess I was too liberal with this phrasing. AA vs. an aggressive player on a flush draw flop is different than AA here on rainbow flop vs. passive guy who's only putting it in with the goods. I would play the former differently.
  • NYCRyNYCRy Red Chipper Posts: 336 ✭✭✭
    Red wrote: »
    Maybe @Faustovaldez123 or @persuadeo could be of some help

    Yep - will be looking into coaching later this year
  • kenaceskenaces Red Chipper Posts: 1,387 ✭✭✭✭
    NYCRy wrote: »
    kenaces wrote: »
    NYCRy wrote: »
    Obviously we want to lose as little as possible in pots where we are beat. Currently in spots where I'm pretty sure I'm behind I tend to raise early in the hand to end the guessing game,

    Don't "raise to find out where you are at". Raising for information cost too much $ for the information, and the information isn't always honest(i.e. you raise your AA and some guy just jams his FD and you fold the best hand)

    I guess I was too liberal with this phrasing. AA vs. an aggressive player on a flush draw flop is different than AA here on rainbow flop vs. passive guy who's only putting it in with the goods. I would play the former differently.

    Forget the hand - it is the principle - don't raise for information!
  • NYCRyNYCRy Red Chipper Posts: 336 ✭✭✭
    Red wrote: »
    Otherwise, check-raising AA on Q77 ? I'm really no fan of it. You can't rep any bluff i.e. draw since no FD and no straight draws are possible - not even a gutshot. By C-R you're turning your hand face up for AQ/QQ+.

    Moreover: if you expect a bluff a) bad idea since it's a super dry board, so very little room for bluff. And b) you then want Villain to keep bluffing (firing with a wide range), so C-R would be against this goal.

    IMHO

    Right, so let's say I check/call flop. Pot is $135. BU could have a bunch of Q's and a few 7's. BB has lots of 7's and Q's. Now BB leads for $75. Hero?
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 1,973 ✭✭✭✭
    But why do you want to check ??!
  • NYCRyNYCRy Red Chipper Posts: 336 ✭✭✭
    Red wrote: »
    But why do you want to check ??!

    To encourage middle pairs, Qx and bluffs to bet/bluff.

    If you don't like checking lets bet the flop then:

    I bet 30, BU calls 30, BB either calls or raises. At this point I'm pretty concerned about being beat here and am probably done with the hand. But that's only this particular scenario - but I do lose less betting the flop and making an exploitative fold. I think in general vs. these ranges and player types I make more with a flop check. Could be wrong obv but that's why I posted
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 1,973 ✭✭✭✭
    NYCRy wrote: »
    Red wrote: »
    But why do you want to check ??!

    To encourage middle pairs, Qx and bluffs to bet/bluff.

    Both V1 and V2 are defined as passive. I don't expect them to bluff.

    They may stab with QX, but they will also call with QX. Betting allows us to control the pot size; and it's very often preferable to have initiative (you can't bluff by calling :-) )
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,639 ✭✭✭✭✭
    kenaces wrote: »
    Forget the hand - it is the principle - don't raise for information!

    To raise for information, you need basically 3 things. The information has to be highly accurate, the information has to be very useful to you, and the value you gain from the information has to be higher than the price you paid. It's very rare that all these 3 are met. So likewise it should be very rare that you do it. Unless you're really good at it, it's better just to never do it.

  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,639 ✭✭✭✭✭
    @NYCRy there's no sense in learning how to play a short stack strategy for cash.

    Remember it's effective stacks that count. Whenever you're playing a hand against a short stacked player, you are short stacked. Since you can't control how much money other players have in their stacks, you need to learn short stack strategy as well.

    Not to mention the times someone is going to straddle for $25 in a $1/3 game, when that is allowed. Unless you're playing at a table where everyone just happens to have $2,500, you just started a short stacked hand.

  • RCP Coach - Fausto ValdezRCP Coach - Fausto Valdez RCP Coach Posts: 829 ✭✭✭✭
    jeffnc wrote: »
    @NYCRy there's no sense in learning how to play a short stack strategy for cash.

    Remember it's effective stacks that count. Whenever you're playing a hand against a short stacked player, you are short stacked. Since you can't control how much money other players have in their stacks, you need to learn short stack strategy as well.

    Not to mention the times someone is going to straddle for $25 in a $1/3 game, when that is allowed. Unless you're playing at a table where everyone just happens to have $2,500, you just started a short stacked hand.

    i understand effective stacks and to your earlier point, its not meaningful to purposely put yourself shortstack and have it be meaningful in cash games
    COACHING NOW AVAILABLE HERE
  • jfarrow13jfarrow13 Red Chipper Posts: 1,253 ✭✭✭✭
    So my big problem with this hand is that in this instance he had 7, but like, God aren't you C-betting this board a ton with missed hands? Like I'm betting AK here. I'm betting my under pairs. I'm betting like almost everything with a smaller sizing, since they are both passive, the may likely limp non-suited broadways, but they just got a ton of hands here that aren't a Q or a 7. So I'm gonna c-bet. So guess what, when I DO have a hand like AA, I wanna get value from a Q. It's hard to flop trips man. Bet here for value. C/ring to "see where I'm at" with AA here is a waste of AA imo.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,639 ✭✭✭✭✭
    i understand effective stacks

    I know you do, I was speaking more to the forum population :)

  • mwolovetz1mwolovetz1 Red Chipper Posts: 15 ✭✭
    Nothing wrong with short stacking with 40bb and jamming or folding period, always a idiot that will call with worst hand. I am talking QQ+, AK, and maybe JJ and TT and AJs+ depending on position, its a positive EV play most times based on equity in those hands? Any rebuttal?
  • Joseph FJoseph F Red Chipper Posts: 820 ✭✭✭
    edited February 28
    "Openly high on marijuana" - It's not alcohol. Many regular users only feel more comfortable with their game after they smoke a little.
  • NYCRyNYCRy Red Chipper Posts: 336 ✭✭✭
    mwolovetz1 wrote: »
    Nothing wrong with short stacking with 40bb and jamming or folding period, always a idiot that will call with worst hand. I am talking QQ+, AK, and maybe JJ and TT and AJs+ depending on position, its a positive EV play most times based on equity in those hands? Any rebuttal?

    Seems like an odd post to resurrect this hand which is almost a year old. Seems like you are just asking whether buying in for the min and using a push/shove strategy is wise? Maybe if you are on a super short bankroll
  • NYCRyNYCRy Red Chipper Posts: 336 ✭✭✭
    Joseph F wrote: »
    "Openly high on marijuana" - It's not alcohol. Many regular users only feel more comfortable with their game after they smoke a little.

    Again, I really don't remember but I probably mentioned this to signify this was a passive, recreational player. he was probably talking a lot about being high, not knowing it was his turn, etc.
  • Joseph FJoseph F Red Chipper Posts: 820 ✭✭✭
    edited February 28
    NYCRy wrote: »
    Joseph F wrote: »
    "Openly high on marijuana" - It's not alcohol. Many regular users only feel more comfortable with their game after they smoke a little.

    Again, I really don't remember but I probably mentioned this to signify this was a passive, recreational player. he was probably talking a lot about being high, not knowing it was his turn, etc.

    Or that's just the table image he likes to project. Of course, most likely he's just young, a fish, and naive because he thinks there's some merit to telling the table that he smoked weed earlier.
  • NYCRyNYCRy Red Chipper Posts: 336 ✭✭✭
    Ok. Its the table image he likes to project. glad that's settled

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