At what point do blockers not matter?

N AN A Red Chipper Posts: 147 ✭✭
1/3 game $500 max bet

Hero's stack $320
V's stack $800

Folds to hero in CO with
:Qc:Jh raises to $10

Folds to V in SB and calls.
BB folds

Heads up to the flop:

:Qs:8s:9c ($23)

V donks $50 -- more than double the pot size.

Hero calls

Turn :5h ($123)

V bets $250. Hero's stack $260

I block the nuts with a J,

but should I call this massive bet?
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Comments

  • jfarrow13jfarrow13 Red Chipper Posts: 1,254 ✭✭✭✭
    Any info on V?
    As a pure player pool exploit I'm folding to the flop bet. Bluff me off my Q IDC. With info I may call.
  • N AN A Red Chipper Posts: 147 ✭✭
    jfarrow13 wrote: »
    Any info on V?
    As a pure player pool exploit I'm folding to the flop bet. Bluff me off my Q IDC. With info I may call.

    No info on V. I saw him a couple times but never at the same table
  • Yanming ZYanming Z Red Chipper Posts: 294 ✭✭✭
    No you should not be calling, and no your blocker has minimum relevance in this hand.

    First off your PFR size is pretty small, you invite the blinds in with a wide range of hands. Stuff like all combos of JT, 89, 88, 99, and even some combos of Q9 and Q8 depending on how loose the table is. That is a lot of combos that's "protecting" their hands from a flush draw, and your J only reduces the combo of JT from 16 to 12.

    When facing overbets like this, refer back to minimum defense frequency. So V is betting 250 to win 123, he needs you to fold 67% of the time to make an auto profit, so you need to call with top 33% of your range. Say you got to the turn with AA(6), KK(6), QQ(3), JT(16), 99(3), 88(3), 89s(2), and all combos of QJ-AJ(36), a total of 75 combos, you need to be calling with top 25 combos. This means JT, QQ, 99, 88, and fold everything else.

    Sometimes this type of math is challenging to do at the tables, but with practice it becomes easier. But whenever you are not sure, just follow the rule of "don't pay them off" and fold everything but the top of your range.
  • Adam WheelerAdam Wheeler Red Chipper Posts: 2,659 ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2018
    One precision here, MDF holds when the opponent is playing balanced or close to optimal. Otherwise if you think Villain is nowhere near it you can go lower then what MDF recommend or higher if you suspect he is bluffing too much.
  • jfarrow13jfarrow13 Red Chipper Posts: 1,254 ✭✭✭✭
    TBH the hands I defend with on the flop are :AS: A, :KS: Kx, sets, straights. I prob defend my :AS: Q for 1 street in an attempt to improve to a spade. I fold all others as an exploitative fold. He is heavily weighted towards sets, 2 pair and straights, and many times when I see this kind of action, he is a V who see's this board and is terrified of being "outdrawn", especially with 2 pair hands like 98. I find a flop fold with ease, and wait to acquire more info on player. You've lost $10. Sure, maybe he's bluffing you. But if you watch him carefully, you'll figure out in the next hour or two how he plays. He probably won't stop bluffing if he is bluffy. You'll be able to catch him later.
  • YoshYosh Red Chipper Posts: 580 ✭✭✭
    Love that blockers are finally being taken down a peg!! You do unblock spades though.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,312 ✭✭✭✭
    Easy exploitative fold ?

    Villain seems very happy about his hands. Strongly donk. This doesn't look like a probe bet or a testing bet "to see where I'm at".
    I don't expect a random 1/3 Villain betting like that without a strong made hand (2P+). So easy fold.

    BUT
    Pay attention to him. If he bets like that this time, he could be on the spewy side.
    Also his betting pattern (bet sizing aka overbetting and donkbetting aren't usual) could help you a lot to play against him.

    About the blocker: yeah, it's good to block JT, but we only block these combos. Not many others Villain could call preflop and hit strong this board (sets, 2P).
    To chose which Q you should call with, QJ may be better than KQ since you block a nutted combo. But here I don't expect TP to be enough.
  • N AN A Red Chipper Posts: 147 ✭✭
    edited April 2018
    jfarrow13 wrote: »
    Any info on V?
    As a pure player pool exploit I'm folding to the flop bet. Bluff me off my Q IDC. With info I may call.
    Yanming Z wrote: »
    But whenever you are not sure, just follow the rule of "don't pay them off" and fold everything but the top of your range.

    Guys, this is the nuts! I came into tonight's session with you guy's advice in mind: Don't pay off Unknown Vs when I have no read or hand history at all.

    I combined that with betting big post flop with my value hands when I had good read. I like the results!

    Even though I will have to check/fold a lot on the flop, but if I balance my checking range, they won't know what to do! If they check back, they might give me a free card. If they bet, I might call with showdown hands or punish them with C/R.
  • SullySully Red Chipper Posts: 780 ✭✭✭
    JT, they always have it. That and AK :)
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper Posts: 4,296 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The question is being asked backwards. Blockers help with close decisions, so it should be "at what point do they matter."
    Yosh wrote: »
    Love that blockers are finally being taken down a peg!! You do unblock spades though.

    Haha, very on point.
  • N AN A Red Chipper Posts: 147 ✭✭
    persuadeo wrote: »
    The question is being asked backwards. Blockers help with close decisions, so it should be "at what point do they matter."/quote]

    @persuadeo So would you please share at what point do blockers matter?

    I had a hand where I blocked the nut straight with backdoor flush draw coming.

    I had :Tc:7c
    on :Ts:6c:5d:8d

    My stack was $258 and the pot was $146

    V put me all in and I called after about 30 seconds of tanking.

    I blocked the nuts with open ended straight draw.

    Hand result:
    River was :Th

    V showed :6d:7d for 2 pair

    But the hand result for OP hand:
    I called the bet of $250 thinking I had a chance with my blocker and my gut shot.

    River: :Js

    V showed :Jd:Th for a nut straight on the flop
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper Posts: 4,296 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Blockers, in the bluffcatching scenario, matter when you are in a part of your range that you need to defend. This is not the case here, as villain has little incentive to lay this price with a range of hands TPMK will do well against. To put it another way, if you had J5s here, would you want to rip it in as a bluff because you blocked the straight? Reread Yanming's summary.

    I can't speak to the other hand, although I see what you are doing by comparing the two, as we don't know the action or why you have 107 in the first place. When you are outside of a rational static construction you can't evaluate what is what very easily.
  • tripletiretripletire Red Chipper Posts: 323 ✭✭✭
    persuadeo wrote: »
    This is not the case here, as villain has little incentive to lay this price with a range of hands TPMK will do well against. To put it another way, if you had J5s here, would you want to rip it in as a bluff because you blocked the straight?

    Is it not dangerous to assume villain has a grasp of what parts of his range are incentivized to do what? The donk is most often theoretically unsound and not part of most players constructed strategies, leaving it mainly used by players who aren't well versed in theory or more generally what they aim to accomplish.

    @Red and the others saying this doesn't look like a probe/weak type bet, why? Because of sizing?

  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper Posts: 4,296 ✭✭✭✭✭
    tripletire wrote: »
    persuadeo wrote: »
    This is not the case here, as villain has little incentive to lay this price with a range of hands TPMK will do well against. To put it another way, if you had J5s here, would you want to rip it in as a bluff because you blocked the straight?

    Is it not dangerous to assume villain has a grasp of what parts of his range are incentivized to do what? The donk is most often theoretically unsound and not part of most players constructed strategies, leaving it mainly used by players who aren't well versed in theory or more generally what they aim to accomplish.

    @Red and the others saying this doesn't look like a probe/weak type bet, why? Because of sizing?

    Fair, but it's more dangerous to assume villains have no grasp at all.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,312 ✭✭✭✭
    tripletire wrote: »
    @Red and the others saying this doesn't look like a probe/weak type bet, why? Because of sizing?
    Yes

    There is a good pro video on RCP about donkbetting if you're interested.
  • Adam WheelerAdam Wheeler Red Chipper Posts: 2,659 ✭✭✭✭
    Talking about blockers ?

  • Adam WheelerAdam Wheeler Red Chipper Posts: 2,659 ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2018
    N A wrote: »
    1/3 game $500 max bet

    Hero's stack $320
    V's stack $800

    Folds to hero in CO with
    :Qc:Jh raises to $10

    Folds to V in SB and calls.
    BB folds

    Heads up to the flop:

    :Qs:8s:9c ($23)

    V donks $50 -- more than double the pot size.

    Hero calls

    Turn :5h ($123)

    V bets $250. Hero's stack $260

    I block the nuts with a J,

    but should I call this massive bet?

    You're not only blocking the nuts with a J, you're blocking a lot of hands he would rationally calls OOP in the SB(This obv depends on player profile).

    If you suspect he can calls in the SB with J8-J9-Q8-Q9, which is realistic given a passive live player profile, you block those also.

    So what does he is left with ? A very very narrow value range. And given his sizings on Flop and Turn you can let go that hand pretty easily as he will very rarely value bet with worst because of your blockers and he probably don't play his strong draws like this.
  • Adam WheelerAdam Wheeler Red Chipper Posts: 2,659 ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2018
    Also i would like to add that you should investigate and determine realistically what is you're calling range on this flop with your strategy?

    Because when you calls QJ here, specially with the V sizing on Flop and effectives stacks on Turn, you need to realize that if you never calls very strong hands also, you'll land on Turn very vulnerable and you'll probably overfold to a guy that is just decently aggressive enough.

    So you're range will put you in tough spots on Turn where you'll either folds too much(wrongly) or calls often times with worst or with vulnerable hands.

    So given stack depth and your hand blocking a lot of his rational calling combos in the SB, if you think he can bluff Flop then your TP becomes more valuable specially if you never calls a sets on this flop or overpairs this is the most important question.
  • tripletiretripletire Red Chipper Posts: 323 ✭✭✭
    Red wrote: »
    tripletire wrote: »
    @Red and the others saying this doesn't look like a probe/weak type bet, why? Because of sizing?
    Yes

    There is a good pro video on RCP about donkbetting if you're interested.

    Why is the sizing convincing enough of the villain's strength?
  • Adam WheelerAdam Wheeler Red Chipper Posts: 2,659 ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2018
    Let's say Villain calls with this in the SB, he is passive:
    99-22, AJs-A2s, KJs-KTs, QTs+, JTs, T9s, 98s, 87s, 76s, 65s, AJo-ATo, KTo+, QTo+, JTo

    Let's say you have AK instead.

    On this Flop : :Qs:8s:9c

    Villain has 49 combos of TP and Straight.

    But when you hold :Qc:Jh

    Villain has now 32 combos of TP and Straight, it is a ~35% removal effect on his nuts range which is insanely huge for post flop play.

    Let's add his gut shots.

    When you hold AK he got 46 GS combos.

    But when you hold :Qc:Jh

    He now has 30 combos.

    So overall your blocking effect on his bluffing range is ~35% also.

    So think about what he is now firing from his range with those sizings on Flop and Turn.

    You are removing A LOT of his options and he still shows tremendous strength.
  • Adam WheelerAdam Wheeler Red Chipper Posts: 2,659 ✭✭✭✭
    I forgot to count sets in his nuts range.
  • tripletiretripletire Red Chipper Posts: 323 ✭✭✭
    persuadeo wrote: »
    tripletire wrote: »
    persuadeo wrote: »
    This is not the case here, as villain has little incentive to lay this price with a range of hands TPMK will do well against. To put it another way, if you had J5s here, would you want to rip it in as a bluff because you blocked the straight?

    Is it not dangerous to assume villain has a grasp of what parts of his range are incentivized to do what? The donk is most often theoretically unsound and not part of most players constructed strategies, leaving it mainly used by players who aren't well versed in theory or more generally what they aim to accomplish.

    @Red and the others saying this doesn't look like a probe/weak type bet, why? Because of sizing?

    Fair, but it's more dangerous to assume villains have no grasp at all.

    I disagree, but only slightly. These will be some of the highest variance pots you end up in, with the losses potentially insane mistakes. But the times villain is a spazzy player who can show up with anything here, will be the highest EV call downs of any session. The balance is in knowing what percent of the time villain is making those insane plays.

    I'm still not advocating this turn call yet, but it's close.
  • OdB_BlackBaronOdB_BlackBaron Red Chipper Posts: 8 ✭✭
    edited April 2018
    @tripletire

    Let's be realistic, what is Villain's range on Turn assuming he is balanced?

    This maybe :
    99-88, AsTs-As2s, JTs, 98s, 76s, JTo, 98o, 76o

    Versus that range Hero has 20% equity.

    Now given the odd line Villain is taking how many bluffs does he really have on Turn ?

    The less he has compared to a balanced opponent, the worst it is for Hero.

    Shove it Shove it Ya, Shove it Yam, Shove it Yay! Gimme the chips so i can take them away !

    -OdB
  • tripletiretripletire Red Chipper Posts: 323 ✭✭✭
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,998 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2018
    When you leave the confines of online poker forum theory discussions and are faced with a huge donk bet by a real live recreational player, that's when, lol

    If I had a nickel for every time someone got felted and then mentioned "blockers" in the post-mortem discussion, I'd never have to work another day in my life.

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