Biggest leak + taking a loss and going home

AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,486 ✭✭✭✭✭
A piece of advice Split gave me in the past was to set a time limit for a session and put $200 in a jar, if I go over the time limit for my session I lose the $200 or equivalent to a buy-in back then.

Only issue I have with this is when the game is really good and I think I can make some good money against the players. I find most tables profitable as I just adapt from tag to lag to make a hand and value bet large.

What other advice.would you give someone who lacks discpline on leaving when you are stuck? The problem I have is I work full time and sacrifice a ton of sleep. Im ok on 6-7 hours of sleep, but twice this week i left the casino after 5am and had work at 9:00am.

Looking for other alternatives to build discipline. I know game will always beat there and I don't need the money, just have a hard time leaving unless game is super nitty then ill book a loss and come back next day. This year im around 80%+ win rate so doesn't happen often. Just really want to fix this. Only other thing i can think of is not to go mon-thur..but trying to put in hours whenever i can.

I know there has to be a bunch of articles on this some where.

Thanks in advance.
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Comments

  • N AN A Red Chipper Posts: 147 ✭✭
    How long on average are your sessions? If you work full time, 6-7 hours a session is plenty. Maybe think poker as your 2nd job. You have to work X amount of hours, and that's it.

    When you say you don't want to leave after you're down, how many buy ins are you down for?

    Me personally, my max buy in is $300. I always bring 4 buy-ins to a session. If I lose 4 buyins in a session, I'd be so mad, there's no way I could continue playing.

    But, I never lose 4 buyins. After 2.5-3 buy ins, I already feel the burn and don't want to play anymore.

  • TravisTravis Red Chipper Posts: 430 ✭✭✭
    I too struggled with this many nights. At first it was part of the thrill of playing. Other times being stuck and needing to win it back...
    Eventually the discipline just came on its own.
    One thing is to have a Max number of buying for a session. I have always set mine at 3. (Yes broke the rule a time or two)
    It didn't matter what the games buy in was.. meaning sometimes playing say 1/2 the max buy in was 300, but I was planning to buy in for 100. So if I lost 300 I was done.
    Nowadays I still use the 3 rule, but reality is usually I stop if I lose two. At this point I am often tired. Also even if I don't think I am tilted, subconsciously I am. So I am not playing my A or even my B game.
    Remember the casino isn't going anywhere. It will still be there when I am rested, aware, and able to make good decisions
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,486 ✭✭✭✭✭
    N A wrote: »
    How long on average are your sessions? If you work full time, 6-7 hours a session is plenty. Maybe think poker as your 2nd job. You have to work X amount of hours, and that's it.

    When you say you don't want to leave after you're down, how many buy ins are you down for?

    Me personally, my max buy in is $300. I always bring 4 buy-ins to a session. If I lose 4 buyins in a session, I'd be so mad, there's no way I could continue playing.

    But, I never lose 4 buyins. After 2.5-3 buy ins, I already feel the burn and don't want to play anymore.

    Typical session after work, i go home and eat dinner and will go to the casino for 3-4hours until around midnight. Midnight should really be my cutoff time, so if I go at 10pm my session should only be set for 2hrs and walk away. There are days where im also up 3 buyins but could easily see making 6 buyins from the table, so stay to make a bit more. The amount of money whether it's $100 or $1,000 is all the same to me. I always try and make the correct play and I know money will come when it does.

    When I played online I was really good at sticking to four hours of play. I load up 24 tables and just log off after four hours. Didn't check the cashier.
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,486 ✭✭✭✭✭
    persuadeo wrote: »
    I'm sure there are a million tips and tricks.

    How about just set a time and leave? You say you want to play professionally....

    Time to grow up.

    In fact, if you can't just leave, you can't call yourself any sort of professional.

    (Also, pros don't brag about their sessions or win rates, fyi.)

    Look in the mirror. You're a skilled degen. You use a psychopath as an avatar. You self confirm your own inadaptability.

    You can do better.

    (Hey, same for all you tilters out there, looking for a magic pill... lollerroonies to all of you.)

    Thank you. Came off a bit harsh, don't say sorry, but that is what people like me need some times.

    Tips and tricks help build a routine and then you can break a bad habbit cause you built discipline. For me I just need to look at leaving at my set time as another +EV decision that's part of the game. No different than folding KK when there is an ace on the board. Focus more on the intangibles rather than the money of it.

    As for win rates, hourly, skill level etc I welcome people to post and share as an encouragement to others to work towards.

    I'll set my goal for midnight as a cutoff time going forward on work days. I know what I did in the past whether I made $500 or lose $200, four hours of play was long run around $100 profit. I need to think of live poker the same way. Hourly rate x # of hours = profit. Not what I actually won or loss.

    Thanks for the push forward.
  • jfarrow13jfarrow13 Red Chipper Posts: 1,105 ✭✭✭
    I think @persuadeo really nailed this on the head, and while it's one of those "easier said than done things", it's something I'm really trying to work on. My tips echo some things that people already pointed out, but I'll re-enforce them.
    - 2 buy-ins max. Hard to keep playing my A game if I'm down 2 buy-ins. The "gotta earn it back" mentality is real, no matter what you tell yourself.
    - If I get up a certain amount, switch tables and re-buy. I'm a deep stack clown anyways. Might as well "lock up" a win and play where I'm strongest, 75-100 BB's. This also helps me avoid my "up a huge amount and gave it all back" conundrum which makes you leave feeling bad.
    - Come into the session focusing on playing well instead of winning. Winning sessions are somewhat out of your control. Playing well is not. Remember "poker doesn't owe you shit. Doesn't owe you cards, doesn't owe you equity, doesn't owe you 'holding' or 'getting there'. Expectations leads to disappointment. Focus on your game play and results will follow"
    - Try to play on days where I don't have a super hard capped "time limit". The casino will always be there, true. But it is easier when you don't feel "rushed" to play your best. Rule 3 helps with the short sessions. If I feel I played well and made the best decisions, then leaving down after 3 hours doesn't mean anything, right?


    Mindsets that I am trying to break:
    - Winrate and hourly. Deleted that poker app. Last year I was ruled by win rate and hourly. For pro's, it's helpful and necessary. For me, it became what I was about. Trash. I track wins and losses now, and at the end of the year I'll make a graph. Hours played aren't recorded. That shouldn't matter for me anyways.
    - Expectation to win. It's out of your control. Playing well is not. Come in and expect to play well. Results will follow long term.
    - If I'm up or have a hard time cap, leaving because it "rude". If I just lost a huge pot and got up and left, no one would say anything. If I'm up big or just won a huge pot, and I told myself I have to leave in 10 minutes, I'm 'hit and running'. I did this yesterday, stacked someone at 6:55 and had to leave a 7. I stayed till 7:25 cause I didn't wanna feel like I "hit and ran". I don't owe these stranger shit, and I'm not leaving for the wrong reasons. If you really feel bad or the need to justify, look at your phone and be like "mannnn I can't believe I gotta leave right now. My girlfriend is killing me, but sorry guys I do like her more than you ugly humps." Everyone there can relate. GG, go next.
    - Being up big and then losing some. Being down $400 and coming back to breaking even feels amazing. Being up $400 and leaving even feels awful. It's the same thing. If your afraid when your up to lose it all, time to go or switch tables and re-buy. This is a mentality of fear. Fear is crippling for poker. Avoid.
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,486 ✭✭✭✭✭
    @jfarrow13

    Another one is if im up say $700 and sitting on 1k stack. I have no problem losing my stack cause I still feel like im playing the 1\3 game. Where as like the night before I was in the game for $1100 and a few other deep stack players were there as well. I felt like I was playing 200bb deep at 2\5. Didn't feel like the same 1\3 game where I can lose a buyin on a single hand. I would lose 3 or 4 buyins on one hand.

    Being up a buyin and changing tables and running it up again really helps me play my A++ game I think and make some higher variance but most optimal plays because it's more of a free roll. Unfortunately i usually won't have time to run up a stack twice so ill sit at the same table in the same seat for 3-4 hours and go home.

    I like the fact where you said you stayed extra 25 minutes cause you didn't want to look like you hit and run. I do that all the time as well. Where I need to leave and i win a big pot last orbit so I stay two more orbits. Most players at my casino are pretty chill though and even if you do hit and run no one is going to say anything cause their guilty of the same thing. I don't like announcing that I'm getting ready to leave either because some players will either try and set mine vs what is usually a bit tighter of a range or put pressure on you that they usually wouldn't do. I don't like giving out extra info. I played some higher stake games in the past or even mid\low stake heads up where we would say were leaving in 30 minutes. Live players don't really do that at medium and low stakes. Again we don't owe the stranger anything. Ill let the bad regs hit and run and change tables and continue to think they are good players, but their self doubt of losing 200bb back says it all.
  • N AN A Red Chipper Posts: 147 ✭✭
    I never change table. What do you experience with changing table? Is it a good thing to do when losing?
  • Fernando OFernando O Red Chipper Posts: 66 ✭✭
    An attachment to being right - I win a high % of the time - and short term results can be a serious problem, with no easy solution.

    As far as your discipline being a problem is concerned, I don't see it - you advertise discipline for staying on the ropes and taking a beating. Figure out how to turn it on it's head so that you become disciplined at staying in the game as long as possible when you are winning and have everything going for you as opposed to booking a win to feed a greedy ego (I've booked many a paltry win so I can let my ego say, "I'm a winner.")

    And learn how to tell yourself and your ego to fuck-off. When you can do that it will become easy and liberating to tell inconsequential others to go fuck themselves - which is tactfully done through silence :-)
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,486 ✭✭✭✭✭
    N A wrote: »
    I never change table. What do you experience with changing table? Is it a good thing to do when losing?

    Not necessarily when losing. Players change tables when they double up, pocket the 300, and rebuy with their profit. This allows them to "freeroll" with the profit without risking a losing session. If your losing cause you feel table is nitty or your being out played then ya change tables.

    I bring enough with me to play 2\5 but some times the 1\3 looks so juicy i just pick the softer game.
  • N AN A Red Chipper Posts: 147 ✭✭
    edited April 22
    Austin wrote: »
    N A wrote: »
    I never change table. What do you experience with changing table? Is it a good thing to do when losing?

    Not necessarily when losing. Players change tables when they double up, pocket the 300, and rebuy with their profit. This allows them to "freeroll" with the profit without risking a losing session. If your losing cause you feel table is nitty or your being out played then ya change tables.

    I bring enough with me to play 2\5 but some times the 1\3 looks so juicy i just pick the softer game.

    I did cash out my profit when my table broke and wait 30 mins to rebuy in again but I didn't like it. It feels like I'm not as focused as before.

    I'm sure at your casino you can't just cash out and rebuy immediately, so there's a wait time for you to be able to sit back down.

    I never leave when I'm winning. Why would I leave when I'm terrorizing them?

    I do see players change table all the time when they're losing. I should probably try it once or twice.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,202 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Austin wrote: »
    I like the fact where you said you stayed extra 25 minutes cause you didn't want to look like you hit and run. I do that all the time as well. Where I need to leave and i win a big pot last orbit so I stay two more orbits.

    Yeah. And if you have to win another big one and stay another two orbits, well at least in consolation you're winning a bunch of money for that lost half hour of sleep :)

  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,422 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 22
    Just leave when you want to leave if you have a deadline, ffs. Realize what you are doing with the "courtesy flush" extra time at the table approach: "I'm too rude/scared/strategic/crafty to tell you in advance that I'm leaving, but I'll feign it like a mf----r out of pure sensitivity that I'm not."

    If anyone is paying Jeff for all the blocker feltings today, pay me for all the hypocritical balderdash.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,202 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 22
    Well obviously telling them a leaving time ahead of time solves the problem. Even if I don't have a set stop time when I arrive, I still like to say "One more orbit for me guys." Not only does it avoid the hit and run, it helps people plan if the game is going to wind down or not. (Is the host calling in other players or not, etc.) (Applicable in local games, not casinos).
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,486 ✭✭✭✭✭
    For switching tables my casino doesn't make you wait 30 minutes. If your less than 9 handed though you can't switch at all. Only times i switch usually is if game is too nitty or table breaks.

    If it's short handed you can't cash out and rebuy. You would have to wait 30 min.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,202 ✭✭✭✭✭
    @persuadeo what specifically are you disagreeing with? That is just standard good etiquette.
  • N AN A Red Chipper Posts: 147 ✭✭
    edited April 23
    Austin wrote: »
    For switching tables my casino doesn't make you wait 30 minutes. If your less than 9 handed though you can't switch at all. Only times i switch usually is if game is too nitty or table breaks.

    If it's short handed you can't cash out and rebuy. You would have to wait 30 min.

    Yes, but you must put all your chips on the new table, yes? If you switch table, without waiting you must put all your chips on the table.

    But, we're talking about when winning AND cashing out to pocket profit. You must wait for 30 mins to do that, right?
  • N AN A Red Chipper Posts: 147 ✭✭
    jeffnc wrote: »
    When I'm playing late and I'm stuck, I tend to think "Some of these guys are bad, I just need to double up." But really, I have an hourly rate I make. So let's just say it's $20/hr. That's really what I'm expected to make, not the double up. So is it really worth it for $20?

    I'm going to think about this more....thanks for sharing
  • N AN A Red Chipper Posts: 147 ✭✭
    persuadeo wrote: »
    Just leave when you want to leave if you have a deadline, ffs. Realize what you are doing with the "courtesy flush" extra time at the table approach: "I'm too rude/scared/strategic/crafty to tell you in advance that I'm leaving, but I'll feign it like a mf----r out of pure sensitivity that I'm not."

    If anyone is paying Jeff for all the blocker feltings today, pay me for all the hypocritical balderdash.

    Pros, don't care if recreational players leave (hit and run), might put us on tilt, but that's our problem. LOL
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,486 ✭✭✭✭✭
    N A wrote: »
    Austin wrote: »
    For switching tables my casino doesn't make you wait 30 minutes. If your less than 9 handed though you can't switch at all. Only times i switch usually is if game is too nitty or table breaks.

    If it's short handed you can't cash out and rebuy. You would have to wait 30 min.

    Yes, but you must put all your chips on the new table, yes? If you switch table, without waiting you must put all your chips on the table.

    But, we're talking about when winning AND cashing out to pocket profit. You must wait for 30 mins to do that, right?

    no, your essentially a new player at my casino. Buy in min or max but you cant bring all your chips
  • NYCRyNYCRy Red Chipper Posts: 312 ✭✭✭
    On the hit and run topic - a winning player should never leave a game early just to book a win since they would be costing themselves money in the long run. Additionally, since poker is just one long session anyway, why do we care when someone else decides to cash out? No need to hit and run. No sense in being bothered if anyone else does it either.
  • kenaceskenaces Red Chipper Posts: 1,329 ✭✭✭✭
    jeffnc wrote: »
    @persuadeo what specifically are you disagreeing with? That is just standard good etiquette.

    In a home game or even some club games I think it is good etiquette but even in that context it was super common.

    In a Casino no need to announce when you are leaving(unless you are playing in private game) IMO.
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,670 ✭✭✭✭
    First of all, great post and comments. Thank you everyone! To (hopefully) add:
    Austin wrote: »
    Only issue I have with this is when the game is really good and I think I can make some good money against the players. I find most tables profitable as I just adapt from tag to lag to make a hand and value bet large.

    Just remember that there will be another good game the next time, too. It's unlikely that this is a once-in-a-million opportunity.

    Austin wrote: »
    What other advice.would you give someone who lacks discpline on leaving when you are stuck? The problem I have is I work full time and sacrifice a ton of sleep. Im ok on 6-7 hours of sleep, but twice this week i left the casino after 5am and had work at 9:00am.

    For me, it's not just about money: it's about opportunity cost. Yeah, you could stay and put a few extra bucks in your pocket. But, at what cost to your professional and personal life? In my experience, it's rarely worth it.

    N A wrote: »
    I never leave when I'm winning. Why would I leave when I'm terrorizing them?

    I might be taking this out of context, but I would strongly disagree with this. There are many reasons to leave and many reasons to stay. Many reasons to leave when you are up big and many reasons to stay. Same with when you are losing.

    By extension, do you only leave when you are losing?
  • Ruxton_AtheistRuxton_Atheist Red Chipper Posts: 151 ✭✭✭
    edited April 24
    Austin: If you are staying at the card room til 5 am when you have to work at 9, you don't have a discipline problem, you have an addiction problem. A bit of honest self-assessment may be in order. You have asked the community for help with quitting. Start with an inquiry into why you play.

    "Quitting is easy. Getting up is hard." - Tommy Angelo
  • jfarrow13jfarrow13 Red Chipper Posts: 1,105 ✭✭✭
    You can't catch me dead playing poker all night anymore (bachelor party craps, black jack and poker casino runs after the 2 AM bar let-out aside). I still somewhat struggle with sticking to hard stop time limits, especially if I'm winning or down just a bit, but it's gotten better. So a good adjustment I've made for myself is that. I generally play Friday early evenings, and Sunday afternoons. Problem is on Fridays, I often am like "mannnnnn I just barely got my feet wet. I've only played for like 3 hours! I'M NOT READY TO LEAVEEEEEEEEE" (3-7 PM just feels so weak, especially if I'm having fun and had a beer or two). It's almost like golf for me, 9 holes leaves me wanting more, but by the 16th hole I'm kinda over it. On Sundays, I arrive at 1 PM and am generally sick of poker by 7 PM and ready to go. I dunno how you sicko's play 17 hours sessions. My ideal session is 2-6 hours.
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