Nasty spot

kmuffman kkmuffman k Red Chipper Posts: 26 ✭✭
edited May 14 in Live Poker Hands
Funky spot.
2/3 game
Utg +1 (fish) limp
Villain (700) in MP (loose passive- raise light in position and call 3 bet almost 75%. Villain usually play fit or fold on flop after calling 3 bet with > 50% folding to cbet) raise to 12.
Hero (600) tag AKs in CO 3bet to 45.
We went HU
Flop 7s8hKh (pot 90)
Villain check
Hero bet 65
Villain re raise to 185

What you should we do?

Best Answers

  • TravisTravis Red Chipper Posts: 428 ✭✭✭
    Accepted Answer
    The standard line would be to call and evaluate. Any heart or Q on turn puts you to a tough decision. You can narrow villians range here a lot. 77,88, 78, KK, AA, QQ,JJ, AK, Axh. So is V type to just flat 3bet with AA or KK? Doubtful with AA, maybe with KK but would he raise that here?
    Alot is player the player situation. You are way ahead or way behind.
    The problem is if you just call your hand is face up.
    In truth I call and evaluate turn as stacks are deep, planning to get all in on a non heart turn. However 4bet here is a great option as it takes you out of bluff catch mode and puts pressure back on villian. With stacks this deep if he reraises you fold.
    I want to see what @Faustovaldez123 and @Christian Soto would say
  • Faustovaldez123Faustovaldez123 RCP Coach Posts: 756 ✭✭✭✭
    Accepted Answer
    If this person is truly loose and passive aka fit or fold as you mentioned @kmuffman k than ure probably already dead, all u will have is a bluff catcher when villain is not bluffing, sooooo u should make an exploitative fold

    If, the dynmaic was such that u belive villain is getting tired of u and could be playing back, then we are never folding and u have the option of forcing him to play for stacks now or wait until turn to mostly get it in on non hearts and Q like @Travis mentioned wont be the greatest also
    COACHING NOW AVAILABLE HERE

Answers

  • kmuffman kkmuffman k Red Chipper Posts: 26 ✭✭
    edited May 14
    Bc the board texture was heavy draws and possible kx in his hand. I punt off my 200bb. ( I highly do not believed he would just flat KK AA pref). Mr
    Valdez is absolutely correct :) and yes there was that dynamic where I was 3betting him light quite frequently but he was also light opening alot..not sure if that play some what of a factor. Should have made that exploitive fold!! My question really is is AK worth punting off 200bb??..sigh now looking back.maybe result oriented but terrible play. Villain was holding 77.
  • Faustovaldez123Faustovaldez123 RCP Coach Posts: 756 ✭✭✭✭
    kmuffman k wrote: »
    Bc the board texture with heavy draws and possible kx in his hand. I punt off my 200bb. ( I highly do not believed he would just flat KK AA pref). Mr
    Valdez is absolutely correct :) and yes there was that dynamic where I was 3betting him light quite frequently but he was also light opening alot..not sure if that play some what of a factor. Should have made that exploitive fold!! My question really is is AK worth punting off 200bb??..sigh now looking back.maybe result oriented but terrible play. Villain was holding 77.

    If this dynamic was forming then i don't blame you for stacking off but it's also true that some players refuse to change and wont stack of light so your frequencies about them have to be precise. Its all good doh, live and learn.
    COACHING NOW AVAILABLE HERE
  • SullySully Red Chipper Posts: 703 ✭✭✭

    To me the lesson here is you described villain perfectly and then forgot it in the heat of battle. I hate this when it happens to me. it means either I had no plan or a shit plan.

    I would much rather have a shit plan then no plan. This looks like no plan

    the question isn't really "is AK worth punting off 200bb??"because the answer to this and many poker questions is always the same "it might be"

    The questions is "when is AK worth punting off 200BB? Take this scenario and replay it 10 times with different villains, different pot sizes, even different hands.
    is AA here any different? QQ?? use Equilab if you want, Flopzilla. What is the plan for your entire 3 betting range??

    Do that and plans will begin to formulate

    Having a plan, multiple variations, a game tree in your head is rather comforting. Still losing plenty of 200BB stacks but the word punt is used less

  • Christian SotoChristian Soto RCP Coach Posts: 2,115 ✭✭✭✭
    It comes down to profiling and the line work attached.

    When Villain is a value heavy profile or some form of a variation of this profile like we see here, we can presume he overfolds to CBets in 3B pots (as you mentioned), and as a result now we can begin to construct exploitable lines.

    For example, a checkback on Flop. We expect over folding on Flop, and further he is unlikely to continue facing a triple either with a worse hand or with a bluff.

    As played, I think it becomes really difficult to Fold the top here. AK no heart is a very good hand here and I would rate it as the top. I don’t think the exploit is to bet/fold Flop. I think the exploit is to potentially find check backs.

    Once we have decided to bet and face a CR, I think it’s pretty arrogant (for lack of a better word) to think we can correctly find Folds because we are so certain.

    We lose to two combos of 87s, 6 combos of 88/77. So 8 combos of value.
    His bluffs are A2hh-AQhh (minus A8hh), 9Thh, JThh, J9hh, Q9hh, QThh, QJhh, 7xhh (let’s say 3 combos), 56hh, 56s/9Ts. (~26 combos)

    He obv isn’t pulling the trigger 100% of the time with all these bluff combos, but there are just so many available bluffs that to find a fold is pretty tough if he even pulls the trigger a reasonable number of times.

    Also, he can have Kx himself sometimes. It is rare of course and maybe only 5% of the time he has KQ with the Qh and thinks it’s good and has had enough of getting 3bet and Folding.

    In my opinion, betting to Fold becomes a blunder. Where as bet/continue on this board (even against this profile) cannot be too big of an error.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 1,427 ✭✭✭✭
    Maybe this would have been prevented to underbet the flop. 65 into 90 is a lot here.

    Hero has a range advantage, but Villain has a polarized advantage.
    - Hero has KK, AA and AK very often (and will continue with), and bluff only with some nut FD like AJhh.
    - Villain has more sets (77, 88) and way more combos to get a nutted hands later like OESD, FD.

    Also, when Villain may raise, his best value hands we beat (with AK) is KQ. And I doubt Villain may raise with KQ when we have KK+/AK.
    So our hand is a bluff catcher, between hands we are drawing dead (sets) and hands with great equity+position.
    If Villain isn't prone to bluff (bc loose-passive), AK is really unhappy when we get raised.

    Since we don't want to bet/fold (AK is too strong for it) but we have a endangered hand (facing many draws meaning many turns aren't good for us; we should avoid giving a free card), an underbet with a wide range seem the best solution to me.

    I gladly take all criticism on this play.
  • kmuffman kkmuffman k Red Chipper Posts: 26 ✭✭
    edited May 14
    @sully. My plan originally was betting flop strictly for values, then near pot size if a brick ott but the 2.5 reraise from this particular opponent completely threw me off.
    @Christian I wasnt able to put all that combos together at the spot. I just feel like there just too many combos he could be bluffing and a few for values. Glad you point that out. Is there any way to simplify the process like that on the fly or just get better/easier as you play more?
    @red I think he would continue wether I go 1/2, half, 2/3 or full with all his ranges (flsh oesd, two pair, flush with oesd, kx) ..unless he completely air the flop. I'd rather bet slightly heavy for values if he's on draw or Kx
  • Christian SotoChristian Soto RCP Coach Posts: 2,115 ✭✭✭✭
    kmuffman k wrote: »
    @sully. My plan originally was betting flop strictly for values, then near pot size if a brick ott but the 2.5 reraise from this particular opponent completely threw me off.
    @Christian I wasnt able to put all that combos together at the spot. I just feel like there just too many combos he could be bluffing and a few for values. Glad you point that out. Is there any way to simplify the process like that on the fly or just get better/easier as you play more?
    @red I think he would continue wether I go 1/2, half, 2/3 or full with all his ranges (flsh oesd, two pair, flush with oesd, kx) ..unless he completely air the flop. I'd rather bet slightly heavy for values if he's on draw or Kx

    Better as you play more but you also quickly classify certain boards as having more available draws than most and less value combos.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,172 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I don't think we're necessarily way ahead or way behind. It's usually either fairly close, or we're crushed. Villain having a flush draw, for example, is still fairly close relatively. This isn't something you can tell by plugging his range into an equity calculator because that's an average, and the same average can come from "way ahead or way behind", or "we're ahead in a lot of close ones or crushed by a few ones". Which is basically the range Christian put out. I picked my version of his range and get 45% for us and 55% for villain.
    88-77, T9s, 87s, 65s, AhKh, AhQh, AhJh, QhJh, AhTh, QhTh, JhTh, Ah9h, Qh9h, Jh9h

    So IMO if you find yourself in a situation like this on a wet board, get some experience with Equilab and figure out what your typical equities are going to be, and then decide if you're going to shove or fold on the flop. In this case, the money in the pot pretty much makes it a 50/50, so you can just ship it if you want to give some action, or fold if you're tight on bankroll, something like that.

    Personally, I think villain's range is going to be a little tighter (fewer gambling hands) and as played I fold flop. I like checking back the flop more. Even weaker players know that if you're drawing, your chances are cut in half by the turn and they're much less willing to gamble. i.e. it's easier to narrow down their range to value on the turn if they show strength.

  • kmuffman kkmuffman k Red Chipper Posts: 26 ✭✭
    edited May 16
    @jefffnc I have to admit when it comes to using software flopzilla etc. I'm the worst. I feel like this kinda spot could go either way also. Your line of checkin the flop in case villian on draws and less likely to gamble if miss turn is something definitely to consider as opp is capable of c-r on draws also. Thx man.
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,167 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Villain's profile seems to change quite a bit as the hand was discussed. I watched a video by Split yesterday where he discussed an AA hand and the person who sent him the HH said

    "Villain is unknown....plays like a standard tag, occasional bluff or light call down, nothing out of the ordinary."

    What is wrong with this statement? You can't have it both ways as split pointed out. You can't say he is unknown and then go on to describe how he plays.

    1) you stated loose passive
    1.1) you stated he raises and calls might
    2) you say he plays fit or fold post
    2.1) you say he will bluff or cr draws.

    Is he loose passive or loose aggressive?

    If he is loose passive then he is probably not raising some Q9s, 87s, J9s etc over a limper so there are less combos of flushes in his range.

    If he plays fit or fold then he is unlikely to raise any draw on the flop besides maybe Ah7h or Th9h.

    It's not like you are under repping your hand. You raised almost 4x and made a 2\3 cbet, which is rather strong and not a line villain will likely play back at. He probably says your hand is face up as AA AK so let's play for stacks.

    You stated you were thrown off by the "2.5 reraise" but its more like the standard 3x from 65 to 185, only oft by $10.

    If you range this villain correctly as loose passive
    1) doesn't raise draws
    2) doesn't over play KQs (remove KQo being 3bet pot).

    What hands do you actually beat?

    If it's a bad lag sure you probably gotta stack off here. If it's a good lag your probably still in trouble vs the get it in range.

    Most 1\3 players are not taking these aggro lines especially this deep with just a draw. 88% of the time it's a set or 87s. Can't be TP+fd. So more weighted towards made hands. If the K was not a heart you can throw in some KT-KQhh hands.

    As other's have stated it's based on the correct profile.

    Also ask yourself how you play AJ, AQ, 99-QQ here. If your 3 betting light as you said are you still betting 65? You said he's fit or fold, so why do you need to size up?
  • kmuffman kkmuffman k Red Chipper Posts: 26 ✭✭
    @Austin Imma have generalize the fit/fold statement based on the 2.5 hr of playing with the villian and the 3 of 4 pot we were HU, which might not be all that accurate. This was the first time I've seen him re raise my bet or simply a bet which should have trigger all alarms. As for the betting size on flop, I used this size stritcly for values bc even if villian is fit/fold player this type of board texture probably hit his ranges as well. Not sure how much I'm flip flopping but we can't always be so accurate . I definitely agree about the 1/3 player pool not taking this line without holding the few combos that crush my hand.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,172 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 16
    Austin wrote: »
    "Villain is unknown....plays like a standard tag, occasional bluff or light call down, nothing out of the ordinary."

    What is wrong with this statement?

    lol

    There are 2 kinds of fit or fold players, and it depends on their definition of the word "fit". On a flop of :KH: :8H: :7S: , does 77 fit? Yes for all. Does AJ fit? No for all.

    But when it comes to hands like :AH: :7H:, or :6H: :5H:, or even :AH: :QH: or :TS: :9S: , do those fit? These are also a "fit" for all in a sense, but it's in how they play it. Some will think they "banged it", and be willing to get it in. Others will play a set very strongly but a draw very passively. They don't think in terms of equity.

    For example, does villain think of :6H: :5H: as being ahead or behind? I think of it as being ahead, but some think it's behind and therefore should be played passively. And while I think of :AH: :7H: as being behind, I also think I have odds to get it in with the money already in the pot.

    Sometimes these players are comically obvious. Even some otherwise solid players have made comments when I stick it in with :6H: :5H: in a situation like this, like "Wow, put it in with just a draw? Sheesh, that's pretty ballsy man."

    So you have to know how a fit or fold villain views hands like these before you can come up with a range that he'd check/raise with.

Leave a Comment

BoldItalicStrikethroughOrdered listUnordered list
Emoji
Image
Align leftAlign centerAlign rightToggle HTML viewToggle full pageToggle lights
Drop image/file