Kk wet board four ways

AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 4,060 ✭✭✭✭
edited May 16 in Live Poker Hands
8 handed
Utg ($200) opens $12
Mp1 Hero ($500) :Ks :Kc calls $12
Btn ($300) calls $12
Bb ($200) calls $12
Flop ($50) :Td :8h :7h
Bb check
Utg check
Hero bets $25
Btn calls $25
Bb calls $25
Utg calls $25
Turn ($150) :8C:
Bb checks
Utg checks
Hero bets $80

Pretty bad flop for my hand, but good flop for my range.

Utg loose splashy
Bb over aggro has raised to 30-40 first 3 hands he sat down. This is his 4th hand.
Btn tight passive (open limps TT)

On the turn there is not a lot of money behind if they shove. I don't block hearts, 9x, or Tx so giving 3:1 with a half pot bet.

Missed my 3 bet preflop as i had 3bet 3x already first 30 minutes and should have 3 bet to $40 preflop.

Thoughts?

Comments

  • Zero CoolZero Cool Red Chipper Posts: 219 ✭✭✭
    Austin wrote: »

    Missed my 3 bet preflop as i had 3bet 3x already first 30 minutes and should have 3 bet to $40 preflop.

    This is all the more reason to 3bet with this hand. The first few times you 3bet they give you credit for a big hand but after a while they're no longer believers which is great when you have a big hand.
    Austin wrote: »
    Pretty bad flop for my hand, but good flop for my range.

    Unfortunately its also a good flop for BTN and BB ranges as well. This is a board we should expect to face a lot of resistance so if we are going to bet it should be for a larger sizing. Same goes for the turn I'm not sure why you're trying to give them such a good price especially after getting 3 callers on the flop.
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 4,060 ✭✭✭✭
    Zero Cool wrote: »
    Austin wrote: »

    Missed my 3 bet preflop as i had 3bet 3x already first 30 minutes and should have 3 bet to $40 preflop.

    This is all the more reason to 3bet with this hand. The first few times you 3bet they give you credit for a big hand but after a while they're no longer believers which is great when you have a big hand.
    Austin wrote: »
    Pretty bad flop for my hand, but good flop for my range.

    Unfortunately its also a good flop for BTN and BB ranges as well. This is a board we should expect to face a lot of resistance so if we are going to bet it should be for a larger sizing. Same goes for the turn I'm not sure why you're trying to give them such a good price especially after getting 3 callers on the flop.

    Original plan was actually bet fold as these players are not pushing draws very much. The turn I thought was pretty good card for my hand. Still lose to 98s (2combos), but the rest of their range is 9x and Tx heavy.

    Based on my sizing i can still bet fold vs btn on the turn. Pretty gross spot if it plays out like that.

    Don't really agree with large sizing here based on my hand strength and stacks involved.
  • BigFarmBigFarm MontrealRed Chipper Posts: 14 ✭✭
    This is a tricky situation. I like the flop bet but after getting 3 callers it just seems too likely somebody has hit this board hard by the turn.

    That said, BB sounds like he has a wide range here and the others could have tons of draws, overpairs, and AT type of hands.

    The size is good to charge draws.. and are you folding to a shove over top?

    Overall I think I like the line but you should have 3bet pre ;)
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 4,060 ✭✭✭✭
    BigFarm wrote: »
    This is a tricky situation. I like the flop bet but after getting 3 callers it just seems too likely somebody has hit this board hard by the turn.

    That said, BB sounds like he has a wide range here and the others could have tons of draws, overpairs, and AT type of hands.

    The size is good to charge draws.. and are you folding to a shove over top?

    Overall I think I like the line but you should have 3bet pre ;)

    Call bb or utg. Fold to button
    everyone folded to the turn bet
  • kenaceskenaces Red Chipper Posts: 1,137 ✭✭✭✭
    Austin wrote: »
    Missed my 3 bet preflop as i had 3bet 3x already first 30 minutes and should have 3 bet to $40 preflop.

    Thoughts?

    While it may seem simple and obvious - NOT 3B the top of your range is BIG mistake.

    I would suggest you get your pre flop game dialed in, as you seemed to have posted a bunch of HH with pre flop mistakes. For any serious student of the game this is a must.
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 4,060 ✭✭✭✭
    kenaces wrote: »
    Austin wrote: »
    Missed my 3 bet preflop as i had 3bet 3x already first 30 minutes and should have 3 bet to $40 preflop.

    Thoughts?

    While it may seem simple and obvious - NOT 3B the top of your range is BIG mistake.

    I would suggest you get your pre flop game dialed in, as you seemed to have posted a bunch of HH with pre flop mistakes. For any serious student of the game this is a must.

    Agree..FPS symdrome trying to trap the maniac.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 1,144 ✭✭✭✭
    Austin wrote: »
    Missed my 3 bet preflop as i had 3bet 3x already first 30 minutes and should have 3 bet to $40 preflop.

    Yes agree: you missed a great 3bet opportunity. As @kenaces said: bc you shall bet the top of your range. And I'd add: you shall 3bet especially if you already 3bet "so many times" lately. Villain may take you for a maniac and pay you with funny hands. Allowing your KK to be profitable more easily.
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,292 ✭✭✭✭
    As played (ignoring pre-flop a moment), I like your post-flop play. In general, I'm not a fan of big aggression on a wet board multi-way that hits opponents' ranges. But, because of your pre-flop play, you are so under-repped that you have to see it out. If you're going to flat-call pre-flop, then you're playing the there's-no-way-he-has-AA-or-KK game, and you need to exploit that.

    So, pre-flop: I agree with FPS.
    Post-flop: Well-played given your pre-flop play.
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 4,060 ✭✭✭✭
    Curious if this was higher stakes, say 5\10, and the guy opened for $40 UTG and I flatted KK would it still be gross? Ep vs EP usually doesn't have a lot of 3 bets. I know Johnathan little book he doesn't have a 3bet range in this spot.

    It prevents MW pot or exploits a loose player. If the table had been tight in its dynamics then I think flatting here makes a lot of sense.

    First time ever two days ago, I had a spazzy guy fold KK face up preflop. I opened UTG to 15 got two callers co and BTN, V in SB (500) raises to 45, hero reraise to $120. This is the same guy that I 3 bet 54s against in my other thread. It shocked me because I've seen him call 88 in this spot before. I think he is now over adjusting as he has know how light im 3 betting. This was a 4 bet obviously so my range is pretty nutted but vs his small sizing if we were heads up im flatting here and playing post.
  • kenaceskenaces Red Chipper Posts: 1,137 ✭✭✭✭
    Austin wrote: »
    Curious if this was higher stakes, say 5\10, and the guy opened for $40 UTG and I flatted KK would it still be gross?

    Yes


  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 1,144 ✭✭✭✭
    kenaces wrote: »
    Austin wrote: »
    Curious if this was higher stakes, say 5\10, and the guy opened for $40 UTG and I flatted KK would it still be gross?

    Yes


    Depending on the situation and table dynamic, flatting KK could be maxEV compare to 3bet.
    Also higher stakes also mean we should pay attention to our frequencies. So flatting a big hand once in a while is good to protect the calling range.

    no?
  • kenaceskenaces Red Chipper Posts: 1,137 ✭✭✭✭
    Red wrote: »
    kenaces wrote: »
    Austin wrote: »
    Curious if this was higher stakes, say 5\10, and the guy opened for $40 UTG and I flatted KK would it still be gross?

    Yes


    Depending on the situation and table dynamic, flatting KK could be maxEV compare to 3bet.
    Also higher stakes also mean we should pay attention to our frequencies. So flatting a big hand once in a while is good to protect the calling range.

    no?

    You seem to be assuming we need to have a MP1 CC range.
  • Wiki_LeaksWiki_Leaks Red Chipper Posts: 513 ✭✭✭
    Austin wrote: »
    Pretty bad flop for my hand, but good flop for my range.


    Thoughts?


    What is your MP1 flatting range facing an EP open?

    Why do you think T87 is a good flop for your cold call range in MP in relation to UTG open and LP flatters?


  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 4,060 ✭✭✭✭
    Wiki_Leaks wrote: »
    Austin wrote: »
    Pretty bad flop for my hand, but good flop for my range.


    Thoughts?


    What is your MP1 flatting range facing an EP open?

    Why do you think T87 is a good flop for your cold call range in MP in relation to UTG open and LP flatters?


    I don't have any 1 gaps like J9s but i have all sets and some combo draws JTs, QJs, ATs. With these particular stack sizes I usually won't call below J10s where as if we were deeper I may have 87s as well. I won't have A9s as well. Only around 12 combos I'm willing to really get all in on the flop. I could add AJs and AQs as well depending on my oddd and actions taken after me. My range for betting this flop should be very strong. I actually prefer a check with my exact hand, but also feels way too nitty given I flatted preflop, so decided bet-fold may be best option. It also helps that the two players have already checked and only one player behind me, despite getting called by all 3.
  • Wiki_LeaksWiki_Leaks Red Chipper Posts: 513 ✭✭✭
    edited May 18
    So if you take that range and compare it to this board, how many nutted combos are available? It looks like you have pretty few. I would agree that, if you have a leading range here, it should be narrow and very poled, but there may or may not be enough top end combos to go around for this to be a part of a reliable strategy in this spot.

    If youre flatting hands kk pre at this depth, it should be with the intention of finding a way to get all of your money in on the flop. This means youll almost certainly need to check raise, which to me makes more sense to protect both your range and your equity. The likelihood of your opponents holding equity hands equity hands is going to be very high, and these hands are incentivized to attempt equity realization by mashing the call buttton all day long, even when this short stacked.
    kenaces wrote: »
    Austin wrote: »
    Missed my 3 bet preflop as i had 3bet 3x already first 30 minutes and should have 3 bet to $40 preflop.

    Thoughts?

    While it may seem simple and obvious - NOT 3B the top of your range is BIG mistake.

    I would suggest you get your pre flop game dialed in, as you seemed to have posted a bunch of HH with pre flop mistakes. For any serious student of the game this is a must.

    I think this is really important as well. Take a week off and build a solid preflop strategy, or at least a starting point. Knowing the subset of hands you will have in most spots makes range construction way easier and linework more precise.
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 4,060 ✭✭✭✭
    @Wiki_Leaks where a check raise makes some sense i think bet folding is more superior in this spot. There was a hand I played similar to what your saying yesterday.

    5 ways to the flop.
    Flop ($85) QT6r
    I check KK
    One guy bets 45
    3 people call
    I check shove litttle over 300.

    I think QT6 hits callers range pretty hard and great spot to check raise. T87hh though I'm nearly drawing dead when called or against a hand that has a lot of equity that is not folding, which is why i think checking in T87 or bet folding is better. For the most part as the intial raiser from EP i am likely check calling this board to see what develops.

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