PLO Starting Hand Question 1

SullySully Red Chipper Posts: 703 ✭✭✭
5/5 NL/PLO mix

Mix of good NL, good PLO and lots of action players.
Most of the time it's the Wild West, especially on PLO round. These dudes want big pots
I am predominantly an NL player hence my questions will be PLO focused

Effective stack- Hero 120bb

UTG raises to $10
UTG+1 raises to $40 (has raised just about every PLO hand pre for the heck of it)
MP Calls
HJ calls
Hero in Co with :Ac :Kc :Qh :Td

Question #1
raise, call, fold?

Question #2
if you call there is chance players yet to act might pot it. They would do this with a pretty wide range and the profile of the table is there would be plenty of callers. If you call initially and this happens, would this level of hand, given table profile, be worth playing for stacks at 120BB?

Question #3
How wide a range in the PLO game should I be thinking about to stack off multiway when in the 100-120bb range in a game like this? top 2%? 4%? 6%? 1%?


Any thoughts, questions, discussion welcome

Thanks

Comments

  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,172 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Sully wrote: »
    Question #1
    raise, call, fold?

    Just depends on your strategy and style. Option 1 is to call and "play poker" against the table, but I use the term loosely because this is going to be a tiny SPR pot, but at least you have one decision left (one decision is better than no decisions when it comes to leveraging your skill, but getting it in with better cards preflop can still be more profitable sometimes). Option 2 is to isolate the loose raiser with a 3-bet, but from the sounds of things that might not happen since there were 2 loose callers in between. Folding isn't an option really.
    Sully wrote: »
    Question #2
    if you call there is chance players yet to act might pot it. They would do this with a pretty wide range and the profile of the table is there would be plenty of callers. If you call initially and this happens, would this level of hand, given table profile, be worth playing for stacks at 120BB?

    You are never really going to be in bad shape with this hand in a multiway pot. You don't want to be heads up against aces ever, especially with the A in your hand. And that's always a concern. But in a 4 or 5 way hand even aces can't hurt you much. I'd be surprised if at that table you were ever below your equity share by more than a percentage point, and usually you're going to be a little above it. (e.g. 23% in a 5 way pot) Unfortunately if other players are going to play that way, you just have to take your small advantages, ride out the swings, and hope it pays out for the evening.
    Sully wrote: »
    Question #3
    How wide a range in the PLO game should I be thinking about to stack off multiway when in the 100-120bb range in a game like this? top 2%? 4%? 6%? 1%?

    That completely depends on what ranges everyone else is stacking off with. What you probably need to do is go to http://www.propokertools.com/simulations, or your favorite simulator, and just start plugging in some hands that you see people sticking it in with, and then start plugging in some hands of your own. It's not an exact science (the simulator is, the range part isn't).
  • Jmo925Jmo925 Red Chipper Posts: 16 ✭✭
    In your spot I'd probably take a flop, your hand is very nutty so you don't mind other players coming in(if you had 6789ds I'd raise or fold). if you raise you're committing your stack agaisnt a re-raise and if up against up against AAxx in a bad spot. Specially with position look at flop and make a decision. If someone comes back over the top with a pot sized bet they most likely have AAxx at that point you have to make a decision on whether you'll have enough pot odds to call.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 3,334 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The wider you can raise in plo, play non-transparently, and purchase potshare the better off you will be and the more dangerous a player you are. Since you've identified a wide 3 bettor, it's go time.
  • blasterblaster Red Chipper Posts: 83 ✭✭
    Pot it and get it in
  • Joseph BonoJoseph Bono Red Chipper Posts: 8 ✭✭
    Certainly don't fold - this is a strong multiway hand with excellent nut value and good freeroll opportunities.

    You are the person who is best equipped to tell us what would probably happen if you were to 4 bet pot it to $220, but I suspect, given your description of the table, that you will end up on the flop with four or more players, and the only mystery is whether someone 5 bets to get it all-in pre or whether you see a flop with an SPR of around 0.5 (which is going to be an all in on any flop you hit a real piece of).

    You have a preflop equity edge on many hands, but your edge is not that strong. For example, against three hands (KQ87ss, TT95ss, and J983ss) I pulled from a Live at The Bike PLO hand that saw the flop you have 28% equity preflop (www.propokertools.com/simulations/show?g=oh&h1=Ac+kc+qh+td&h2=Ks+qs+8s+7c&h3=Ts+Th+9h+5d&h4=Jh+9c+8d+3d&s=generic). And these are pretty suspect hands (but well within the ranges of the sorts of opponents you are describing).

    It is probably profitable to get it in pre, but it is going to be more profitable to see the flop with a higher SPR, position, and a hand that has strong visibility versus opponents that are going to make large post flop mistakes (versus small preflop ones). Being able to put in only $40 pre and then fold when the flop comes 9d 3s 2d, Jc Js 8d, or Ks 9s 8s is nice, and when it comes Jc Th 9d being able to pile in the money against someone with KQ87ss on a complete freeroll is very nice. Having position will make it easy to get stacks in on the boards that favor you, play small pots (or get out of the way) with marginal value hands, and (very occasionally) steal pots that no one is interested in on static boards.
  • Joseph BonoJoseph Bono Red Chipper Posts: 8 ✭✭
    Regarding questions 2 and 3:
    With this specific hand, I would be fine calling off all in preflop in a multiway situation. Getting it in heads up is bad if you believe the opponent is very heavily weighted towards Aces (against which you want to avoid having an Ace or a pair in your hand, and would generally rather have a double suited rundown type of hand that is somewhere in the Ten to Queen high range). But also, take the dead money into account - it is really hard to be more than a 40/60 dog, preflop, in PLO.

    When considering what hands to stack off with preflop in multiway situations, I would value a suited ace, having AA or KK, having strong connectivity (at most two single gaps, preferably 1 or 0), and having a second suit, in roughly that order. You can certainly stack off with any double-suited perfect rundown and with the medium and high ones too.
  • SullySully Red Chipper Posts: 703 ✭✭✭
    Thanks to all so far

    very helpful

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