Which line with AK in 4bet pot missed flop?

LeChiffreLeChiffre NetherlandsRed Chipper Posts: 641 ✭✭✭
edited May 2018 in Online Poker Hands
PokerStars - $0.02 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 160 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: -, Hands: 1)
SB: 555.5 BB (VPIP: 22.50, PFR: 22.50, 3Bet Preflop: 14.29, Hands: 41)
BB: 152.5 BB (VPIP: 18.49, PFR: 14.29, 3Bet Preflop: 3.70, Hands: 123)
UTG: 146 BB (VPIP: 19.81, PFR: 10.38, 3Bet Preflop: 5.41, Hands: 109)
MP: 168 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 2)
Hero (CO): 101 BB

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has :KC::AS:

fold, fold, Hero raises to 3 BB, BTN raises to 10 BB, fold, fold, Hero raises to 25 BB, BTN calls 15 BB

Flop: (51.5 BB, 2 players) :2C::JC::JH:
Hero checks, BTN bets 25 BB, Hero raises to 76 BB and is all-in

Have no history with BTN, so I assumed what I consider standard for weak regs at these levels, which is to call my 4-bet pre with AK, TT-QQ. Sometimes he will have KK+ and AQ+, too, and sometimes he won't have TT. Given those possible ranges, I figured the only way I could turn a profit here is to check-shove him off AK. I often see a lot of players take a stab at the flop after I indicate weakness by checking to them. For that reason I think he can bet his entire range on the flop. QQ too as he does not give a free K or A on the turn. I don't know, that's what their thought process usually is at these levels.

I have :KC: so I think he will fold all AK. (9 combos). Given that I still have some equity against a hand like QQ or TT if he decides to call with those, I already saw in a FE calculator that it's a +EV line if he folds AK.

Questions:
1) Am I correct in thinking he will often bet-fold AK?
2) Any other better lines? With such a small SPR there's not much manoeuvrability (is that a word?). Betting once and giving up seems like an option too, as well as just check-folding to showdown. Check-calling is probably just terrible.

Cheers
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Comments

  • Paul_KPaul_K DFWRed Chipper Posts: 334 ✭✭✭
    edited May 2018
    Was your plan to call pre if he 5 bet shoves? If yes, then I think just 4 bet shove. If no, just call. Voluntarily leaving yourself w/ 1.5 SPR just doesnt seem a good idea w/ AK.

    At 100 BB, just not deep enough to get fancy. I can pretty much guarantee your villain isn’t doing so. With a preflop call, you can look at check raising as an option. Whether this board is good for that is another conversation.

    If you want a fold on the flop, I think the only choice is c bet shove. Don't think you can ever expect a fold to the check raise on the flop.
  • kenaceskenaces Red Chipper Posts: 1,503 ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 2018
    LeChiffre wrote: »
    Questions:
    1) Am I correct in thinking he will often bet-fold AK?
    2) Any other better lines? With such a small SPR there's not much manoeuvrability (is that a word?). Betting once and giving up seems like an option too, as well as just check-folding to showdown. Check-calling is probably just terrible.

    1) don't really know but you block AK pretty hard

    2) sure ~1/4 pot CB would be the standard as the 4B guy

  • LeChiffreLeChiffre NetherlandsRed Chipper Posts: 641 ✭✭✭
    edited May 2018
    Was your plan to call pre if he 5 bet shoves? If yes, then I think just 4 bet shove. If no, just call. Voluntarily leaving yourself w/ 1.5 SPR just doesnt seem a good idea w/ AK.

    At 100 BB, just not deep enough to get fancy. I can pretty much guarantee your villain isn’t doing so. With a preflop call, you can look at check raising as an option. Whether this board is good for that is another conversation.

    If you want a fold on the flop, I think the only choice is c bet shove. Don't think you can ever expect a fold to the check raise on the flop.

    Interesting.

    Hadn't thought of 4-bet shoving TBH nor of c bet shoving. Lacking the creativity or insight to think outside of the box (or at least, my box) with either 10x-ing pre or shoving 2x-pot on the flop.

    Though I really doubt AK will call my check-raise. I'm giving him 3:1 but I'm repping an insane amount of strength. In my mind, anyway.

    And to answer your initial question: if he shoves I would call, yes. So why is it better to 4-bet shove instead of 4-betting to a normal size? Is it exactly for the reason that if he calls I will play hands like these where it's hard to dig my way out? And if I 4-bet shove I can already exert fold equity from hands like TT, JJ and AK, rather than postflop?
  • LeChiffreLeChiffre NetherlandsRed Chipper Posts: 641 ✭✭✭
    kenaces wrote: »
    LeChiffre wrote: »
    Questions:
    1) Am I correct in thinking he will often bet-fold AK?
    2) Any other better lines? With such a small SPR there's not much manoeuvrability (is that a word?). Betting once and giving up seems like an option too, as well as just check-folding to showdown. Check-calling is probably just terrible.

    1) don't really know but you block AK pretty hard

    2) sure ~1/4 pot CB would be the standard(maybe some checking UTGvBTN) as the 4B guy

    Yeah, but still 9 combos of AK should be enough, no? Compared to 12 QQ+ with equity against QQ and KK.
  • kenaceskenaces Red Chipper Posts: 1,503 ✭✭✭✭
    Was your plan to call pre if he 5 bet shoves? If yes, then I think just 4 bet shove. If no, just call. Voluntarily leaving yourself w/ 1.5 SPR just doesnt seem a good idea w/ AK.

    At 100 BB, just not deep enough to get fancy. I can pretty much guarantee your villain isn’t doing so. With a preflop call, you can look at check raising as an option. Whether this board is good for that is another conversation.

    If you want a fold on the flop, I think the only choice is c bet shove. Don't think you can ever expect a fold to the check raise on the flop.

    No

    COvBTN of course we are 4B calling.

    4B jam ~100bb is bad and so is just calling.
  • LeChiffreLeChiffre NetherlandsRed Chipper Posts: 641 ✭✭✭
    edited May 2018
    kenaces wrote: »
    COvBTN of course we are 4B calling.

    4B jam ~100bb is bad and so is just calling.

    Yeah, that's what I thought. So what would you do on the flop?
  • kenaceskenaces Red Chipper Posts: 1,503 ✭✭✭✭
    like i said above small CB
  • LeChiffreLeChiffre NetherlandsRed Chipper Posts: 641 ✭✭✭
    Oh, right. Gotcha
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Because your oop I suggest 4 betting larger to around 35bb. IP I'm ok with a small 4bet 25-30bb say BTN vs BB.

    Postflop as @kenaces said you can just make a small cbet or c\c. The 2.5x 4bet will allow villain to continue with a lot of his range IP including a lot of suited broadways. Jx is not out of his range.

    Your check raise on the flop in your mind reps strength, but it's not consistent with your 4 bet preflop. You probably don't have any Jx in your range here. You can still play AA and KK this way as well. Your mostly hoping villain folds TT & QQ here for 12 combos. Which calling 50bb to 150bb is probably not going to happen and becomes a seigh call.
  • Paul_KPaul_K DFWRed Chipper Posts: 334 ✭✭✭
    edited May 2018
    LeChiffre wrote: »
    And to answer your initial question: if he shoves I would call, yes. So why is it better to 4-bet shove instead of 4-betting to a normal size? Is it exactly for the reason that if he calls I will play hands like these where it's hard to dig my way out? And if I 4-bet shove I can already exert fold equity from hands like TT, JJ and AK, rather than postflop?

    Yes... I sound crazy and I probably am. I'll explain my pre flop shove thinking and hopefully I can get some feedback and help. Sounds like I need it lol.

    I'm apparently giving him a much tighter range than you. That's a default to him being unknown... with his 3 bet I see him as 77+/AQ+/ and throw in KQs to widen it a bit. Should I be giving him credit for a wide re-steal here as an unknown?

    Him flatting our 4bet should be expected, as we're less likely to see AA/KK/AK. But then, given the SPR we're creating, do we now have to make a hand post flop in order to win?

    So this is where I end up with a pre shove. I see that it sucks if we allow a hand we dominate to get away. But I think we can get those mid PP's to fold, even up to JJ as you said, and that seems like a win. I can be ok with a call from the majority of his range.

    I'm perfectly fine with criticism here, so please have at it!

    I also play mostly live, and never 6 max online, so would like to know if the difference between these two elements plays a part.
  • kenaceskenaces Red Chipper Posts: 1,503 ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 2018
    Austin wrote: »
    Because your oop I suggest 4 betting larger to around 35bb. IP I'm ok with a small 4bet 25-30bb say BTN vs BB.

    If you 4B to 35bb on 100bb stacks can you ever have a 4B/F(i.e. bluff)?

    Not sure how 25-30bb is a "small 4bet"?
  • kenaceskenaces Red Chipper Posts: 1,503 ✭✭✭✭
    I also play mostly live, and never 6 max online, so would like to know if the difference between these two elements plays a part.

    I do have a clue what people are doing at micro stakes online these days but for sure all online games are 3B WAY more than live games!
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
    kenaces wrote: »
    Austin wrote: »
    Because your oop I suggest 4 betting larger to around 35bb. IP I'm ok with a small 4bet 25-30bb say BTN vs BB.

    If you 4B to 35bb on 100bb stacks can you ever have a 4B/F(i.e. bluff)?

    Not sure how 25-30bb is a "small 4bet"?

    What would you consider a large 4bet?

    25-30bb is a large portion of the stack, but it's only 2.5 to 3x the 3bet.

    Are you saying the 4bet should be min? If you min 4 bet do you have any bluffs?

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