Not easy to be a Villian

TravisTravis Red Chipper Posts: 455 ✭✭✭
2/5 8 handed
V UTG 500 +/- limps
folds around
Hero BU Covers raise 30
Blinds fold V calls

Flop (67) :Kc :Qc :7c
V checks
H bets 50
V calls

Turn :7d
V checks
H bets 100
V calls

River (367) :As
V checks
H bets 250 (Villian had about 315 left)
Villian tanks...

What is worst hand you as Villian call with?
Villian folds saying,"you stole that pot"
I'll explain my thoughts later
Hero's hand
:Th :8s

Comments

  • TravisTravis Red Chipper Posts: 455 ✭✭✭
    On turn Villian asked how much I had and I pushed a stack of 12 black chips out further
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Combos
    QQ (3)
    Kk (3)
    Ak (9)
    aa (3)
    AcQ (6)
    Then you probably have like 10 combos of flushes in your range.

    Villain will have a hard time calling for sure even with a hand like KxJc because you got one of the best rivers for your range. I would be worried about him having the Ac though in his hand. If he has :AC: then you only have say 10 flush combos and 6 combos of boats. This is a simple break down, not including quads or last combo of AA etc. KQ gets a bad turn and imo a worse river.

    Good line and sizing. I can't find much Villain can call with besides AcX or JcTx but idk if he is limp calling Axo and J10o from utg. Would have to be a pretty loose player.

    I'll wait for others to see what they call with. You got me to fold almost all my hands. Without the river ace though I think there are quite a few Kx maybe Qx that can call.
  • TravisTravis Red Chipper Posts: 455 ✭✭✭
    So my thinking on this hand...
    Before I even looked at my cards.. He has a marginal holding I should be able to push him off of.. Raise preflop. His call confirms my thinking..
    Flop good board for both of our ranges so just a Cbet likely won't work If he reraises or takes the lead I will give up.. Bet/call.. He has a piece so
    not AK, 77,QQ,KK, likely not Acx .. he has KQ, Jcx-2cx, Kx, J10, maybe a small flush..
    Turn. Good card for me.. I still have 7s in my range, KQ, AK, KQ, Axc, KK,J10, qq, or made small flush, .. still if he reraises I fold. Bet/Call
    River.. plan to shove any club except Ac, leaning toward shove any brick but depends on live read might just give up...
    Honestly didn't think about if an A hit the river as it did...
    Now I don't want him to make an F' it Hero call as he might do with any all in. .. So as now any A gives me better 2pr, completes the straight, and adds more boats to my range. ..
    I make a crippling bet of 3/4 his stack. This screams value and wanting a call.
    I find this bet size can often times get more folds than an AllIn.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,158 ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 2018
    Travis wrote: »
    He has a marginal holding I should be able to push him off of.. Raise preflop. His call confirms my thinking..

    Limping 1/2 isn't limping 2/5. At 2/5 you will (start to) face good players who have a limping strategy. They don't limp because they have junk and want to see a cheap flop, they limp because it's part of a balanced and aggro strategy. Limp-calling doesn't mean "weak" then.

    I don't say it's the case here - we have 0 info about Villain - , I want but to emphasize that you have to not look down at your 2/5 opponent just because they limp.
    Observe them, study their hands and actions. Set a profile and his ranges up. Then and only then you can push with ATC.
    Travis wrote: »
    [Turn] I still have 7s in my range
    Really... reaaaaaaally ? *Most doubtful look*

    How many 7X combos do you open pre AND c-bet on KcQc7c ? Do you really push 9h7h, 7s6s, or As7h preflop and on flop here?

    On this very specific board, if you start bluffing with low pair of 7's, then you're over bluffing.
    Here IMHO Hero has /shall have 0 trips on turn - except maybe Ac7x, but this is mostly thanks to nut FD.

    I think that here arriving on turn, for a good balanced range, Hero should hold either made flush, set (aka boat QQ and KK), 2P (KQ and AA) or combos draw (esp. AcXx and KxXc with a not too bad :CLUB: ).
    Travis wrote: »
    What is worst hand you as Villian call with?
    This is where I strongly dislike your hand review ( / how you played it).

    At no point you make - or at least show - the you put Villain on, how this range hits the flop, with what he calls you both on flop and then on turn.
    The only reasoning you have (shown) is "he limps, he is weak, I'm going to thrown chips at his face until he folds". Which is very regularly an expensive bad plan.

    Show us some ranges! Show us some done homeworks! Show us you were right to push!
  • Digger NickDigger Nick Red Chipper Posts: 10 ✭✭
    Villain is probably widening his range against you because you triple barrel with stuff like T8o.

    It is not possible to say what was going for there. Its based more on player frequencies than the cards.
  • jfarrow13jfarrow13 Red Chipper Posts: 1,254 ✭✭✭✭
    12 black chips out further
    I always think it's so funny when people ask this when it's super apparent they are covered. Chill out Garrett your not getting a live read man.
  • jfarrow13jfarrow13 Red Chipper Posts: 1,254 ✭✭✭✭
    I'd call with KQ lowest, perhaps AJ if I didn't have the :AC: .
  • TravisTravis Red Chipper Posts: 455 ✭✭✭
    @Red
    I did give ranges for him once he called flop bet
    As for me having 7s in my range.. since I would be raising all connectors suited and unsuited here, all one gaps suited and unsuited, all suited two gaps, and have A7 along with K7s that has a number of 7s in my preflop range. Since i Cbetting this flop 100% they are still in my range, but likely not in the callers range.
    Yes it is true my primary plan was to push him off a marginal hand is not optimal strategy at all. It was purely exploitative based on my table image as table captain who when hands went to showdown has consistently had 2pr or better. And his player type of being ABC.

    While I did happen to look at my cards this hand easily could have been played without ever looking. An exercise I try to do at least once per session from the Button. Sometimes even going further, continuing to each progressively earlier position without ever looking until the Villian puts me in a situation I have to look.

  • TravisTravis Red Chipper Posts: 455 ✭✭✭
    Villain is probably widening his range against you because you triple barrel with stuff like T8o.

    It is not possible to say what was going for there. Its based more on player frequencies than the cards.

    Table doesn't know me to be triple barreling that wide. Image is more one of, if the hand goes to showdown then I have it. This particular session that included twice having Broadway over top 2pr. And once having a royal flush over a set.

    While 2/5 players are generally better than 1/2players that's not a high bar to achieve. Many are the same loose passive that is highly exploitable. Most stick to level 1 thinking until they are forced to level 2. Then I just have to go to level 3 thinking, as in this hand. Playing the player and taking exploitative lines is the greatest source of profit for me at 2/5.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,158 ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 2018
    Travis wrote: »
    @Red
    I did give ranges for him once he called flop bet
    As for me having 7s in my range.. since I would be raising all connectors suited and unsuited here, all one gaps suited and unsuited, all suited two gaps, and have A7 along with K7s that has a number of 7s in my preflop range. Since i Cbetting this flop 100% they are still in my range, but likely not in the callers range.

    If you're c-betting 100% of the time, then you're over bluffing. You've waaaaaaaay too much air in your range. This is no balanced range. At all.

    Now, you can say " Who cares? This guy is weak passive, he is going to fold everything but the (almost) nuts". So you bet ATC because you know, based on many past observations, that bluffing with ATC is +EV because he is over folding. You can look for bluff EV using RCP free fold equity calculator: if you're +EV even when you've 0% equity, then you're good.

    But in this case, you didn't care about your range. You didn't play a range. You played the player. (This is not bad per se.) Nonetheless, having a range is important. Knowing how and why you build is too. Being able to deviate from it and knowing why as well. But all start by having a balanced range and a sound strategy.

    Back at your range. Yes, you have some 7X on the flop. But if you've Kh7h or As7d, do you bet them for bluff in a well constructed balanced range ?!
    Please, give me/us what would be your preflop opening range in such scenario. Input the flop. Use the 70%/1-to-2 rule of thumb of Ed Miller from "Poker's 1%" (or any other strategy you'd normally use):
    - Now, how many combos do you c-bet?
    - How many bluff do you have (following Miller) ?
    - List me all your bluffs. Does K7s, 75s or T7s (aka without :CLUB: bc impossible) belong to the list or do you have better bluffs and semi-bluff?
    - How do you handle 7X on futur streets if 7 doesn't show up (in a balanced betting range) ?
    - Bonus question: How is turned trips 7 better than KX on this board / action ?

    Don't take all of this personally, these are questions to increase your/the level of analysis of the hand review.

    Travis wrote: »
    While 2/5 players are generally better than 1/2players that's not a high bar to achieve.
    I don't disagree. We find players at 2/5 as bad as bad players at 1/2. But you shall not forget the good players start to show up at 2/5$. You cannot just say "he limps he is weak". You don't want to try to bully @kagey or @Austin because he limps. You need info first. (Maybe you have them on this Villain, but then you didn't share it).
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Red wrote: »
    Travis wrote: »
    @Red
    I did give ranges for him once he called flop bet
    As for me having 7s in my range.. since I would be raising all connectors suited and unsuited here, all one gaps suited and unsuited, all suited two gaps, and have A7 along with K7s that has a number of 7s in my preflop range. Since i Cbetting this flop 100% they are still in my range, but likely not in the callers range.

    If you're c-betting 100% of the time, then you're over bluffing. You've waaaaaaaay too much air in your range. This is no balanced range. At all.

    Now, you can say " Who cares? This guy is weak passive, he is going to fold everything but the (almost) nuts". So you bet ATC because you know, based on many past observations, that bluffing with ATC is +EV because he is over folding. You can look for bluff EV using RCP free fold equity calculator: if you're +EV even when you've 0% equity, then you're good.

    But in this case, you didn't care about your range. You didn't play a range. You played the player. (This is not bad per se.) Nonetheless, having a range is important. Knowing how and why you build is too. Being able to deviate from it and knowing why as well. But all start by having a balanced range and a sound strategy.

    Back at your range. Yes, you have some 7X on the flop. But if you've Kh7h or As7d, do you bet them for bluff in a well constructed balanced range ?!
    Please, give me/us what would be your preflop opening range in such scenario. Input the flop. Use the 70%/1-to-2 rule of thumb of Ed Miller from "Poker's 1%" (or any other strategy you'd normally use):
    - Now, how many combos do you c-bet?
    - How many bluff do you have (following Miller) ?
    - List me all your bluffs. Does K7s, 75s or T7s (aka without :CLUB: bc impossible) belong to the list or do you have better bluffs and semi-bluff?
    - How do you handle 7X on futur streets if 7 doesn't show up (in a balanced betting range) ?
    - Bonus question: How is turned trips 7 better than KX on this board / action ?

    Don't take all of this personally, these are questions to increase your/the level of analysis of the hand review.

    Travis wrote: »
    While 2/5 players are generally better than 1/2players that's not a high bar to achieve.
    I don't disagree. We find players at 2/5 as bad as bad players at 1/2. But you shall not forget the good players start to show up at 2/5$. You cannot just say "he limps he is weak". You don't want to try to bully @kagey or @Austin because he limps. You need info first. (Maybe you have them on this Villain, but then you didn't share it).

    This is true as at least for @kagey as a balanced limping range that can withstand some heat. I agree not all limps are weak and vs a player abusing the button ill take advantage of them over folding to limp 3 bets. Exploit vs an Exploit.
  • TravisTravis Red Chipper Posts: 455 ✭✭✭
    @red you seem to be making huge assumptions about my overall strategy. This hand was merely an example of playing the player and showing an example of three barrel bluffing on a very dynamic board.
    I would not describe Kagey or Austin or you as an atypical ABC player. Against them I play differently as it is a different situation. So all the what ifs, what about, etc is irrelevant to this hand and this situation.
    As for the 70% model, that is not some etched in stone magic number. It is a baseline to start from. Then making adjustments based on player type, flop Dynamics, hand ranges, and absolute hand strength.
    So for instance, versus a nit or OMC, I may very well check behind well over 30% of my range here.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,158 ✭✭✭✭
    % of betting/calling/raising is rather personal, and even if there are some rule-of-thumb, these ranges shall follow a goal and a strategy.
    But still, when you say "versus a nit or OMC, I may very well check behind well over 30% of my range here" ; still, you haven't shown up with any range... And these are what is for us / you / improving at playing poker important.

    Don't take me wrong, I agree about playing the player. I don't criticize this / your strategy. If Villain is weak folding, I'll also push him around.

    What I criticize in your hand review is the lack of homework you put into your hand review. Show us ranges (check/bet/c-r ranges, bluff v. value, both for V and H), equity, pot odds, alternatives, as well as more info about Villain, table dynamic, Hero's image, history. And how your strategy turn around all of this.
    For example: You asked us with what worst Villain will call the river bet. You added - in your 3rd post (!!) - that "Villain is weak" and may be prone to fold, explaining that so you bet with ATC. But still, he called flop and turn, somehow big bets. What combos did he call preflop/flop/turn with and is ready to fold on river ? What % of his range is it ? Is it enough to triple bluff +EV ?
    I'm willing to discuss your hand and H/V's ranges, but I want you to do your homework as well.

    Or maybe I'm an old prick, boringly showing up and expecting ranges and flopzilla screenshot ?
  • TravisTravis Red Chipper Posts: 455 ✭✭✭
    @red Ah ha...
    There are times I do detailed hand history with flopzilla etc. And talk about what I learned from it.That analysis is important as it is what builds or intuition and ability to evaluate a situation at the table. However, at the table we don't get to pull up flopzilla or make an in depth analysis.
    I gave my live line of thinking. What the range was I put him on once I had some info to narrow his range to a reasonable amount, and how this affected my thinking. Ie when I would fold and when I bet...

    For me one of the things I value from the various vids, podcasts, etc is when the coaches give their in the moment thinking.
  • kageykagey Red Chipper, KINGOFTAGS Posts: 2,241 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Travis wrote: »
    So my thinking on this hand...
    He has a piece so not AK, 77, QQ, KK, likely not Acx .. he has KQ, Jcx-2cx, Kx, J10, maybe a small flush..

    imo, your range assessment seems way off...
    if he's any good, he's never fodling KQ, JT or a small flush - so your barreling is spew
    I don't know why you think he's unlikely to have :AC: Xx... his passive line seems to indicate that he's either on a draw (str8 or flush) or has a small-med pocket pair that's hoping to flop a set/boat
    Lucky for you, his most likely holdings probably ended up being 22-66 with a :CLUB: in it.

    as for me:
    What is worst hand you as Villian call with?
    if I happened to be limping UTG with a weak hand that I'm not opening...
    then, I'd call your river bet with any :AC: Xx hand....
    getting maximum value from a player thinks barreling 3-streets from the button with any two is an awesome bluff.

    congrats on getting your triple barrel through...

    but instead on bragging about how you made such a great play against an ep limper,
    you might want to spend more time building your ranges and understanding how they should be approached on various board run outs.

    your triple barrel bluff had close to zero equity and blockers/card removal.
    it's a classic @Imperator bluff line that counts on the fear of stack loss to replace the logic of equity, probability and pot odds

    sounds like you're way ahead of your player pool as far as thinking hands through... but with all the training shyt on YouTube, TV, internet and web sites, they're going to catch up to you eventually...
    I just had an tight old guy 3-bet me from the SB with AQos in our ⅓ game! He's not dreaming this shyt up by himself... I'm sure Doug Polk had something to do with it.
    then, how are you going to show a profit when your strat is based on running good early in your sessions?

    GL
  • ImperatorImperator Red Chipper Posts: 898 ✭✭✭
    edited May 2018
    kagey wrote: »
    Travis wrote: »
    So my thinking on this hand...
    He has a piece so not AK, 77, QQ, KK, likely not Acx .. he has KQ, Jcx-2cx, Kx, J10, maybe a small flush..

    but instead on bragging about how you made such a great play against an ep limper,
    you might want to spend more time building your ranges and understanding how they should be approached on various board run outs.

    your triple barrel bluff had close to zero equity and blockers/card removal.
    it's a classic @Imperator bluff line that counts on the fear of stack loss to replace the logic of equity, probability and pot odds

    I just had an tight old guy 3-bet me from the SB with AQos in our ⅓ game! He's not dreaming this shyt up by himself... I'm sure Doug Polk had something to do with it.


    GL

    True.... And there have been times I've been spewey.

    Logic of equity? Sure... On the river I certainly don't need any. I only need the logic of the circumstances.

    On the Flop I try to estimate the logic of my own hand and range in this situation. On the turn I try to estimate my opponents logic and range. Some players are never going to call with middle pair and you can target them with air all night long. Some will never call with Ace high. Some you can get off top pair bad kicker if they've been losing to you a lot.

    My advice is always try to bluff more. Our game, like the spy game, does not exist without bluffs and legends.

    But there is more to it than that. Some players will fold to small bets on the river but will be very suspicious of big bets. They are the ones that don't ask themselves... "With this bet size how often do I have to be right?" With thes players your bluffs should look like value bets and your value bets should look like bluffs.

    And with a tight professional Las Vegas-type of ecosystem you can have more bluffs than value for at least half the session. In the New York underground many will call you down with King high.

    Evaluate your ecosystem; evaluate your table; keep track of table dynamics; evaluate the players at the table; ask what is the best had you can get them to fold; bluff accordingly. Find as many bluffs as you can outside of the usual logic and you will win more than your equity allows.

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