How to extract max value?

moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭✭
Typical 1/3 table with typical differences in stack sizes, player profiles, etc. Nothing unusual.

Main V has table covered. Showed willingness to call down light. He is my target at the table.

PRE-FLOP
Folds to HERO ($407), MP2: :Ac :JC: Raise to $15
MP3 ($300): Calls
HJ (Covers table): Calls
BUT ($800): Calls


FLOP ($60): :4c :2c :4s
BUT is a tight player. MP3 and HJ tend to call a lot. Neither has a tendency to bet missed hands on the flop.

A flop like this usually screams for a check-raise to maximize fold equity and retain equity when called. My goal at this point -- given my opponents (especially HJ, who calls down light and who loves to play draws) is to extract max value were I to hit my flush.

What is your plan for the hand given the goal of trying to extract max value if you hit? (I'll either post the results in full later or go street by street if warranted.)

Comments

  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 4,170 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 2018
    A flop like this usually screams for a check-raise to maximize fold equity and retain equity when called.

    That's like, an opinion, man.

    Anyway, why would you be taking a max fold equity line but focused on retaining equity and getting paid? When you x/r and get jammed on, where's your retention now? When you x/r a worse draw off its hand and deny yourself expected value, where's the retention?

    I know we've come a long way, baby, but we still can't have it all.
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭✭
    persuadeo wrote: »
    A flop like this usually screams for a check-raise to maximize fold equity and retain equity when called.

    That's like, an opinion, man.

    Anyway, why would you be taking a max fold equity line but focused on retaining equity and getting paid? When you x/r and get jammed on, where's your retention now? When you x/r a worse draw off its hand and deny yourself expected value, where's the retention?

    I know we've come a long way, baby, but we still can't have it all.

    Good points.

    Note that I didn't write that that's what I did in this case. But, the larger point is well-taken. Thank you!
  • Ben GunnBen Gunn Red Chipper Posts: 9 ✭✭
    I think a cbet for half pot is appropriate here. We want to offer worse clubs and straight draws odds to call and pay us off. None of the overpairs are going to fold anyway.

    We need to have a plan for if we brick out. My instinct is to barrel turn and check/fold the river, unless you know villain will stab the river with his own missed draws. Against players that like to call down, barreling the river seems like suicide, but giving up after the flop feels too passive. That said I don't have much math to back that line up.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,158 ✭✭✭✭
    @moishetreats : since this board doesn't allow us to have combo draw, I don't like c-r. I don't fear to be jammed bc of villains' description, but I think c-r tend to find more fold than triple barrel. Thus, triple barrelling seems to be a better line. Exception would be if stacks/SPR were somehow smaller and c-r would be a strong leverage point (aiming for stacks), where you would c-r some best overpairs and nut FD (but more A2 than AJ?).
    IMHO


    @Ben Gunn : if you triple barrel with made hands (like AA), then you can / have time mix some bluff with. AcJc is a nice triple barrel.
  • Ben GunnBen Gunn Red Chipper Posts: 9 ✭✭
    Red wrote: »
    @Ben Gunn : if you triple barrel with made hands (like AA), then you can / have time mix some bluff with. AcJc is a nice triple barrel.

    This is generally true, but if we trust our read that villain is stationy, can't we exploitatively reduce our triple barrel bluff frequency to almost zero against this particular villain? If he's paying attention enough to exploit our triple barrel range against him, he'll see the bluffs we run against other players and give us credit for those.
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
    i like check -calling the flop being oop vs 3 players. If they are stationary doesn't make sense to try and rep an over pair when they are not folding 55-99 or any lower flush draw. Not a ton of 4x in their range, but betting and getting raised kinda sucks. Triple barrel doesn't make much sense when you don't have any 4x in your range but 1 of the 3 villains do.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,158 ✭✭✭✭
    Ben Gunn wrote: »
    Red wrote: »
    @Ben Gunn : if you triple barrel with made hands (like AA), then you can / have time mix some bluff with. AcJc is a nice triple barrel.

    This is generally true, but if we trust our read that villain is stationy, can't we exploitatively reduce our triple barrel bluff frequency to almost zero against this particular villain? If he's paying attention enough to exploit our triple barrel range against him, he'll see the bluffs we run against other players and give us credit for those.

    Now with what combos would a station continue on :4C: :2C: :4S: ?
    - if PP: we have better PP that him. And over cards for FD allow us to outdraw his PP (plus, if he is a bit sensitive, a big high card like a Ks may make him fold).
    - if FD: either we dominate him (good), or he is calling at a bad price (which is good for Hero too)
    - If 4X... what 4X combos does he call preflop ? Surely few. And we still have equity (esp. with FD).
    - Only 22 will never fold. But these are few combos out of all he may continue with - and we still have some little equity when we hold a PP.

    So, I think this board is really great for us and allow us to manipulate a station with a polarized range.
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Red wrote: »
    Ben Gunn wrote: »
    Red wrote: »
    @Ben Gunn : if you triple barrel with made hands (like AA), then you can / have time mix some bluff with. AcJc is a nice triple barrel.

    This is generally true, but if we trust our read that villain is stationy, can't we exploitatively reduce our triple barrel bluff frequency to almost zero against this particular villain? If he's paying attention enough to exploit our triple barrel range against him, he'll see the bluffs we run against other players and give us credit for those.

    Now with what combos would a station continue on :4C: :2C: :4S: ?
    - if PP: we have better PP that him. And over cards for FD allow us to outdraw his PP (plus, if he is a bit sensitive, a big high card like a Ks may make him fold).
    - if FD: either we dominate him (good), or he is calling at a bad price (which is good for Hero too)
    - If 4X... what 4X combos does he call preflop ? Surely few. And we still have equity (esp. with FD).
    - Only 22 will never fold. But these are few combos out of all he may continue with - and we still have some little equity when we hold a PP.

    So, I think this board is really great for us and allow us to manipulate a station with a polarized range.

    Do you want to manipulate players who never fold?
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,158 ✭✭✭✭
    @Austin : I'm not sure to understand what you imply ?
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭✭
    Thanks for the discussion, guys.

    For those who are ready to move past the flop, the flop action and turn card are listed in the spoiler below. For those still looking to continue to discuss the flop, then skip the spoiler and any further comments in this thread and keep posting on the flop. You can always come back to the other comments later.

    The flop play and the turn card (with the What-should-I-do-next question):
    Given my target of doubling up against HJ, I didn't want to chance it checking through. In addition, I did think that a check-raise had merit, but it had a decent chance of winning the hand there. Note: In almost all cases, that's a good thing!! I decided here to be a little greedy, though, and try to get my stack in were I to make my hand. That lead me to trying to get the pot going now, especially with many/all my outs likely good.

    I bet $35 on the flop, and only HJ (my target all along) called -- as I had thought and hoped.

    TURN (pot $130): :6c (bam!)
    Hero ($357 behind): ???

    What would be your play here -- again, looking to get it all in?

  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Red wrote: »
    @Austin : I'm not sure to understand what you imply ?

    I mean why bluff someone who doesn't fold? Probably better just to set our own price.

    People complain when they barrel off AK and get called down by 2nd pair and say "how can you call that?" Knowing before hand they don't fold. I think hero should realize his equity as cheap as possible vs these opponents.
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Based on how it's played im betting $90 turn and shoving river (310) with 267 left.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,158 ✭✭✭✭
    I meant that we have a great equity against made hands:
    - 49.3% against PP (33, 55-TT)
    - 46.3% equity against PP and trips (33, 55-TT, 54s, 43s, 64s)
    - 43.7% against PP, trips and boat (22-TT, 54s, 43s, 64s)
    worst case:
    - 25.3% equity against trips only (54s, 43s, 64s)
    - 17.5% equity against trips and boat only (22, 54s, 43s, 64s)

    AND we get a significant boost in equity when we add FD in Villain's range - because we dominate these combos and FD on this flop can't be FD+pair.

    Since the worst case is unlikely, Villain being described as calling light so with a wide range (and may continue wide), I want to bet ! I want to build "my" pot.

    Now I wouldn't bet big. Flop is very low (unlikely someone hit, except overpairs). So we shall bet with a rather wide range or PP, overcards (AK, AQ, AJ, KQ?) and nice FD... meaning we shall bet small too.
    I think it's a great spot to underbet with a ~30-40% pot bet to get a call from a wide range, where we also price our FD in. (And if Villain raises, I won't fold.)


    Nota bene about folding a station: bluff barelling on K or Q increases our FE against PP, even against a station.
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Red wrote: »
    I meant that we have a great equity against made hands:
    - 49.3% against PP (33, 55-TT)
    - 46.3% equity against PP and trips (33, 55-TT, 54s, 43s, 64s)
    - 43.7% against PP, trips and boat (22-TT, 54s, 43s, 64s)
    worst case:
    - 25.3% equity against trips only (54s, 43s, 64s)
    - 17.5% equity against trips and boat only (22, 54s, 43s, 64s)

    AND we get a significant boost in equity when we add FD in Villain's range - because we dominate these combos and FD on this flop can't be FD+pair.

    Since the worst case is unlikely, Villain being described as calling light so with a wide range (and may continue wide), I want to bet ! I want to build "my" pot.

    Now I wouldn't bet big. Flop is very low (unlikely someone hit, except overpairs). So we shall bet with a rather wide range or PP, overcards (AK, AQ, AJ, KQ?) and nice FD... meaning we shall bet small too.
    I think it's a great spot to underbet with a ~30-40% pot bet to get a call from a wide range, where we also price our FD in. (And if Villain raises, I won't fold.)


    Nota bene about folding a station: bluff barelling on K or Q increases our FE against PP, even against a station.

    I understand the amount of equity we have and probably not optimal to check. Against some players though you don't need to build a pot. Just check and over bet when you hit.
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭✭
    Just closing the loop (no further comments necessary, but feel free). Thanks for your thoughts!
    Hero led out for $115. I thought that V liked to call, and this is a case where, if V is going to call, say, $90 or $100, V would likely call more. It also set up:

    RIVER ($360): :8h

    Hero ($242): All-in
    V tanks. And tanks. Asks multiple times if I'll show if he folds. I just stare at the felt. V finally calls. Hero wins pot.

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