Questionable shove in a live game

Connor FaddenConnor Fadden Red Chipper Posts: 10 ✭✭
Howdy folks, my first official post on this forum!

I made a shove today that, in hindsight I think was a poor decision. If you all could help give your opinion, that'd be incredibly awesome!

So I'm at about 20-22 BB on the button. I get dealt pocket 8's. Blinds are 200/400/75 At this point everyone is at about 25-50 BB. UTG+1 (medium loose) opens to about 1200, and at this point in time I had the intention to squeeze shove. However, the tightish cutoff then reraises to 2700, and I still go through with the shove. I'll leave the results out until later in the thread, but just want your opinion on actually how bad this shove here was? A fold felt too nitty, considering I was short-stacked and a call just seemed out of the question.

Thanks in advance for any replies! Xx

Best Answers

Answers

  • Connor FaddenConnor Fadden Red Chipper Posts: 10 ✭✭
    Austin wrote: »
    This is a super EASY fold. You have an EP player with a tight range opening, then another player 3 betting him. JJ would be pretty close, but even JJ may be a fold in this spot.

    What range do you give UTG1 opening 3x with? What range does CO 3bet with? What is your equity?

    Against TT+ and AQo+ your 37% equity. I'm not sure they are even 3 betting AQo or TT here given the stacks. Most of the time under 25bb facing a 3x open your 3bet should just be a shove. The 2700 looks pretty strong like QQ+.

    I did rush myself a bit in the moment, which I really regret, but in hindsight I'd give the UTG1 maybe 55+-JTs+-A9o+-A7o if that all makes sense. My equity for the would be give or take 49-50%. Against PURELY that I think it would be a good shove as he didn't seem super comfortable and ended up folding AND worst comes to worst I'd have probably 40-45% equity against his call range.

    The range for the cutoff I'd now give maybe JJ+, which gives me about 45% equity, however, with the range he'd actually call my shove with I'd have around 40% equity (slightly narrower range of JJ+). Considering it's a slightly more narrow range, I now expect him to be calling me a good 90-95% of the time, so there's not much fold equity AND when he does continue, he pretty much dominates my range.

    Thoughts?
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Austin wrote: »
    This is a super EASY fold. You have an EP player with a tight range opening, then another player 3 betting him. JJ would be pretty close, but even JJ may be a fold in this spot.

    What range do you give UTG1 opening 3x with? What range does CO 3bet with? What is your equity?

    Against TT+ and AQo+ your 37% equity. I'm not sure they are even 3 betting AQo or TT here given the stacks. Most of the time under 25bb facing a 3x open your 3bet should just be a shove. The 2700 looks pretty strong like QQ+.

    I did rush myself a bit in the moment, which I really regret, but in hindsight I'd give the UTG1 maybe 55+-JTs+-A9o+-A7o if that all makes sense. My equity for the would be give or take 49-50%. Against PURELY that I think it would be a good shove as he didn't seem super comfortable and ended up folding AND worst comes to worst I'd have probably 40-45% equity against his call range.

    The range for the cutoff I'd now give maybe JJ+, which gives me about 45% equity, however, with the range he'd actually call my shove with I'd have around 40% equity (slightly narrower range of JJ+). Considering it's a slightly more narrow range, I now expect him to be calling me a good 90-95% of the time, so there's not much fold equity AND when he does continue, he pretty much dominates my range.

    Thoughts?

    You think 88 has 40% equity against JJ+?

    Your UTG range of A7o is off. Worse hand is maybe A10o. A lot of 22-66 preflop are just folds from EP. I don't know how experienced utg is but stacks are too shallow to open these hands. MP you can open up and steal more frequently from LJ or HJ and beyond. Utg should be 8-11% opening.

    PS. 88 vs JJ+ you have 19% equity. Any over pair vs under pair is 80\20. Now to have 45-50% or more you would need JJ+ AK+ yourself.
  • Connor FaddenConnor Fadden Red Chipper Posts: 10 ✭✭
    Am I missing something? My Flopzilla results show 40.949% equity. I'm ahead of AJ+ both suited and off, and behind JJ-AA. The game I was in was loose-ish, and people were frequently opening from every position with some absurd hands (106s, J4s, A6o, K8s), so I didn't really respect UTG1's discipline in opening JUST 10% of hands. I'm certain 22-55 will be limped, 66-88 might be raised and 99+ most likely will be raised.
  • stumhstumh Red Chipper Posts: 83 ✭✭
    Well their range is AJs+, JJ+ (not jj +).

    This was a tournament hand? How many left and what’s the prize situation?
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Just because their opening wide doesn't mean they are calling your all in wide. Crazy to think someone calls a cold 4 bet vs their utg raise with AJ. Would have to be a very clueless player.
  • stumhstumh Red Chipper Posts: 83 ✭✭
    To be clear I’m just saying that OP has given villain that range and that’s how he arrives at having 40% equity.

    I agree hand was an easy fold without more information. I might be wrong though. If this is a tournament we need to consider villains tensancybto 3-bet lighter.
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 2,640 -
    Medium pairs in general make poor 4b-shove hands in these spots, partly because they have no blocker value. With your tournament on the line you're really looking for spots where you get everyone to fold, not to get into marginal showdowns.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • Connor FaddenConnor Fadden Red Chipper Posts: 10 ✭✭
    It was early in the tournament, £40 buy in with 2k up top, roughly 80 players and £10 bounty, this is about 40 minutes into the tourny. Players were calling down all in's with KQ, 77, AJo, although maybe a single all in is more "callable" than a raise utg and reraise?
  • Connor FaddenConnor Fadden Red Chipper Posts: 10 ✭✭
    In hindsight, I would have liked the shove into the UTG player, but really shouldn't have followed through with it when the CO 3bet. I've been a tightish, passive player for a while and just recently (past month or so) have been trying to TAG it up; raise my aggression levels. BUT since I'm not used to it, sometimes I end up being reckless and stupid, as happened in this situation.

  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,815 ✭✭✭✭✭
    It is better to post this in the Tournament forum, because tournament calculations are different from cash games.

    It's good that you're trying to get more aggressive, but tournament considerations are pretty different especially given your stack size and ICM considerations, etc.

    It really doesn't matter what other bad players are calling with, as they're making bad calls, so it's not a good idea to reference off that or else you'll be making bad calls too. As a general rule in these situations, you can shove a little lighter (first raise or possibly a 3-bet if you think the raiser is light), but tighten up when calling. Folding doesn't make you passive, calling does.
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
    In hindsight, I would have liked the shove into the UTG player, but really shouldn't have followed through with it when the CO 3bet. I've been a tightish, passive player for a while and just recently (past month or so) have been trying to TAG it up; raise my aggression levels. BUT since I'm not used to it, sometimes I end up being reckless and stupid, as happened in this situation.

    One thing a lot of lower level players do, myself included, is study a bunch of high stake videos or HH because we're drawn in by the amount of money etc. You have to be able to distinguish what works on your level compared to higher levels.

    For example at the bike if they were playing $100/$200 cash game and Dan (tag opened from EP) to $600, Gary (tag but will 3 bet light some times) 3 bet to $2k, Garret (lag), might 4 bet 88 here to like $5k (25bb) because a cold 4 bet gets a lot of respect and he plays great post flop for the most part. If they 5 bet it becomes an easy fold.

    The important part to remember here is that just because they are 3 betting light in these games or 4 betting light for that matter, does not mean low stake players are. Recently i've been seeing more and more players limp in with AK, I am not sure if they are trying to trap me or just make a hand. They are not trapping preflop because they will limp in, then someone will raise get 3 callers and they just over call instead of squeezing.

    For the most part these low stakes tourneys just play ABC. Pre-black friday I did very well in low stake tourneys $20 and under and a couple of $3 and $10 re buyins. Took down a couple VIP tourneys twice (brag), but it was all with simple preflop fundamentals.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,815 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Austin wrote: »
    Recently i've been seeing more and more players limp in with AK, I am not sure if they are trying to trap me or just make a hand. They are not trapping preflop

    When I've seen this and I get a chance to ask the player about it, the answer I usually get is "AK is overrated - it's just a drawing hand."

  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
    jeffnc wrote: »
    Austin wrote: »
    Recently i've been seeing more and more players limp in with AK, I am not sure if they are trying to trap me or just make a hand. They are not trapping preflop

    When I've seen this and I get a chance to ask the player about it, the answer I usually get is "AK is overrated - it's just a drawing hand."

    Had one guy who would raise A3s but not AKo lol.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,815 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Austin wrote: »
    Had one guy who would raise A3s but not AKo lol.

    Soooooooooted!

Leave a Comment

BoldItalicStrikethroughOrdered listUnordered list
Emoji
Image
Align leftAlign centerAlign rightToggle HTML viewToggle full pageToggle lights
Drop image/file