TT and using "targeted ranges" concept

stumhstumh Red Chipper Posts: 83 ✭✭
I recently continued going through core, and the discussion was about targeted ranges.

In this hand the villain is a regular who is aggressive. He plays 24/21 with a 3-bet % of 7, but this session he has been 3- betting more. He's elected to flat call my raise which I would think are small pocket pairs, some weak K8, Q9 type hands, and weak Aces. I'd assume he has some AT / AJ hands but not all of them.

I'm going to post the hand up to the river. If people think my flop check back is awful, please let me know why. I checked back because I thought this was a 1-2 street hand but I couldn't get too much value on the flop. Even thinking this through just now is a flop bet better to a delayed c-bet because 66 is more likely to call flop than c/c alot of turns?

I also wasn't sure which part of his range I was targeting if I bet the flop. Small pairs, certainly, but alot of his air hands might improve to 2nd best hands on the turn and also bluff. Naturally I run the risk of a J, K, A, or spade giving me the second best hand but I thought, overall, a check, seemed better than a bet.

On the turn I called because raising didn't make any sense given my hand, the board texture, and his range.

I'd like to know what people do here on the river. Certainly alot of Ax hands might bet the turn trying to remove my equity (or get some better Ax hands to fold, or small pairs. With that said I don't see what value the villain can think he has in betting the river. I should have more Ax hands in my range than the villain.

His bet sizing also seems a little bit polarising. It's just over pot.

888 Poker - $0.30 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 4 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

SB: 126.23 BB (VPIP: 29.41, PFR: 29.41, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 18)
BB: 127.9 BB (VPIP: 24.43, PFR: 20.85, 3Bet Preflop: 6.78, Hands: 315)
CO: 100 BB (VPIP: 13.89, PFR: 8.33, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 37)
Hero (BTN): 174.17 BB

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has :Td:Th

fold, Hero raises to 2 BB, fold, BB calls 1 BB

Flop: (4.5 BB, 2 players) :Qs:4s:4d
BB checks, Hero checks

Turn: (4.5 BB, 2 players) :2D:
BB bets 3.6 BB, Hero calls 3.6 BB

River: (11.7 BB, 2 players) :AC:
BB bets 12.9 BB




Comments

  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭✭
    Odds are that you'll fold the river often enough for his river bet to show an automatic profit with any two cards, right?

    If you're checking the flop and calling the turn, then you look pretty weak. That gives V a huge range with which to bet big on the river to try to steal the pot. Yes, V might have slow-played a monster and might be trying to look weak. But, since V is aggressive, I also keep open the possibility that V is betting here for auto-profit. I think that you need to call.

    Go back to the flop, though: why did you check? That seems to me to be the turning point. For what it's worth, on this board, I'd likely be betting the flop and the turn.
  • stumhstumh Red Chipper Posts: 83 ✭✭

    Go back to the flop, though: why did you check? That seems to me to be the turning point. For what it's worth, on this board, I'd likely be betting the flop and the turn.

    This would have been my standard line (turn dependent).

    I checked the flop because I wasn’t sure where my value was coming from. I called the turn because I couldn’t raise.
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭✭
    stumh wrote: »
    I checked the flop because I wasn’t sure where my value was coming from. I called the turn because I couldn’t raise.

    I'd reconsider both of these thoughts (note: that doesn't mean that you have to adopt a different path). Both these comments, to me, suggest that you're not seeing all the options available to you. They also seem to suggest that you're focused on the strength of your hand and how it hits the flop rather than on the texture of the flop and how it hits your opponent's range.
  • stumhstumh Red Chipper Posts: 83 ✭✭
    I’m a bit confused.

    I understand that there are, broadly, two reasons to bet: value and bluff.

    I can’t bet my range for value. If I bet A3c here it’s a bluff. If I bet QQ here it’s for value (forget that it would be a bad bet).

    I’m not completely sure what TT is here. Probably value with some protection. I’d like to think I think about what my range hits that flop. It’s a dry and static. I don’t hit that range hard. Because I don’t hit the range hard I’m not sure why I should bet.

    I think I’m misthinking about this whole spot. Previously I would have thought “Tens are ahead of their calling range. I want to bet TT to balance when I have A3 or 89”. And that makes TT a value bet because if I can have 89 they can peel with A5 clubs? Is that right?

    I also assume I’m misapplying the targeted range concept. That should only be used with our stronger hands, right?
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭✭
    stumh wrote: »
    “Tens are ahead of their calling range. I want to bet TT to balance when I have A3 or 89”. And that makes TT a value bet because if I can have 89 they can peel with A5 clubs? Is that right?

    This is on the right track, IMO!

    stumh wrote: »
    I also assume I’m misapplying the targeted range concept. That should only be used with our stronger hands, right?

    Not necessarily. How much of your opponent's calling range is a spade draw, for instance? Is your opponent likely to call a flop bet with, say, 99 or 55 or even 22?

  • cxancxan Red Chipper Posts: 34 ✭✭
    If checking back the flop induces a ton of betting mistakes (villain bluffing too often) I don't see a problem with this play and would definitely call the river expecting him to show up with all sorts of junky hands.
  • stumhstumh Red Chipper Posts: 83 ✭✭
    Right. So I ended up folding the river because I couldn’t work out what my check meant to my opponent. I guess I didn’t have a plan.

    When I c-bet the flop I’m able to narrow my opponents range somewhat. I didn’t have the read that @cxan describes (not saying this isn’t a tendency of villain, just that I didn’t have it.)

    I guess I need to work out clearly in my head the logical implications of checking back the flop and what that means in the context of a turn lead and a rivered ace. I don’t see this large bet as a bluff as often as you might think. I can obviously be wrong about that.

  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭✭
    stumh wrote: »
    I guess I need to work out clearly in my head the logical implications of checking back the flop and what that means in the context of a turn lead and a rivered ace. I don’t see this large bet as a bluff as often as you might think. I can obviously be wrong about that.

    Admittedly, the ace does complicate things...!

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