How do you adjust to ultra fishy 1/2 live games?

keasbeykeasbey Red Chipper Posts: 91 ✭✭
The local game I play in seems to be ultra fishy, where every hand goes limp limp limp raise call call call call call call. 3 Bets are exactly KK+ AK. I wouldnt say its overly passive but stacks change hands on coolers which appear to come pretty frequently. the biggest stack doesnt really get there with good plays, rather they seem to luck into monsters with some random hand and get paid off. Every hand at show down seems to be a random 2P+ or random straight or flush.. even a random boat. something like J3o on J33.

In these games, a....

3x ($6-7) raise is nothing but a glorified limp and will get you 7-8 callers on average.
5x ($10) raise will usually get you 5-6 callers
7.5x ($15) raise will usually get you 4 callers
12.5x ($25) raise will sometimes get you all folds, other times you get 3 callers.

One game i raised the button with AA to $25 and got 6 callers! one of them turned a straight on me after i continued to bet.

I havent found a sweet spot where i can reliably get a heads up Pot which is where i feel my strength lies with my red chip training. I dont play very well in these multiway pots, and i can never tell when people are strong when they call down. I seem to lose a lot of pots to some random offsuit hand that turns or rivers a 2P+ hand. with so many people in the pot it feel like i am trying to dodge bullets when i value bet and i feel like its turning me into a more passive player.

How would you adjust to beat this type of game?

Comments

  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭✭
    Let's reverse engineer the question.

    Say that I gave you the following scenario:

    Pots always go multiway. The winning hand is always 2-pair or better. If a player has 2-pair or better by the river, then he or she will always get his or her stack in before showdown.

    How do you beat/exploit that?

    Usually, we think of poker starting from pre-flop -- and that's not a bad thing!! In this case, start from the river and work backward to pre-flop. Then, you found your play throughout the hand!

    Thoughts? Take a stab at it! :)
  • jfarrow13jfarrow13 Red Chipper Posts: 1,254 ✭✭✭✭
    Step 1. Buy in for $150 (75 BB).
    Step 2. Play a range of 10's + AQ/KQ for a raise to $15.
    Step 3. Play fit or fold on the flop. Flop TP and play it hard and fast unless someone is playing super hard into you and you only got TP.
    Step 4. Limp call hands that make the nuts and dominate other hands. Over limp or limp call for a reasonable price PP to set mine. Limp call Ax nutted hands. Know pot odds so that you know if calling to hit your flushes is worth it.
    Step 5. Get a beer. These games can be frustrating because you think "MAN....I flop TP and he has some junk K4o and I have AK I raised to $15 pre and he still called and hit?" Well, no situation is so crappy that a cold beer doesn't help the situation. Also, just play smartly. If you open AK to $15 and get 3 callers, pot $60 you bet $40 flop and someone raises you....just let it go. Your probably beat if their aren't draws out there. But, often you'll find you can bet bet bet and fish will call it 2+ streets with KJ. I like the 75 BB rule because it's enough to create small SPR where you card selection takes care of the decisions, yet it's enough BB to punish them for being loose with their pre-flop selection.
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Sounds like a standard 1\2 game. It's not rocket science. Simply be realistic though, not every hand is 2 pair +.

    Simply limp in with implied odds hands from ep 22-88, raise AQ+ 99+ KQs+. Expand your range from later positions. Try to only iso with your EP range. I would have my open as $12-$15 as a standard then add $5 for each limper. 3 people limp in make it $25 or so. Spr will range range from 2-4 and just play poker from there.

    Just make a hand and value bet. Avoid bluffing bad players. Avoid low SCs and random broadways from Ep.

    This is simply ABC poker.
  • keasbeykeasbey Red Chipper Posts: 91 ✭✭
    Austin wrote: »
    Sounds like a standard 1\2 game. It's not rocket science. Simply be realistic though, not every hand is 2 pair +.

    Simply limp in with implied odds hands from ep 22-88, raise AQ+ 99+ KQs+. Expand your range from later positions. Try to only iso with your EP range. I would have my open as $12-$15 as a standard then add $5 for each limper. 3 people limp in make it $25 or so. Spr will range range from 2-4 and just play poker from there.

    Just make a hand and value bet. Avoid bluffing bad players. Avoid low SCs and random broadways from Ep.

    This is simply ABC poker.

    this just seems so different from everything i have been learning in Core and The Course, but it makes sense.
  • volcanovolcano Red Chipper Posts: 346 ✭✭
    if you are having issues then the advice is good.
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Chris Q wrote: »
    Austin wrote: »
    Sounds like a standard 1\2 game. It's not rocket science. Simply be realistic though, not every hand is 2 pair +.

    Simply limp in with implied odds hands from ep 22-88, raise AQ+ 99+ KQs+. Expand your range from later positions. Try to only iso with your EP range. I would have my open as $12-$15 as a standard then add $5 for each limper. 3 people limp in make it $25 or so. Spr will range range from 2-4 and just play poker from there.

    Just make a hand and value bet. Avoid bluffing bad players. Avoid low SCs and random broadways from Ep.

    This is simply ABC poker.

    this just seems so different from everything i have been learning in Core and The Course, but it makes sense.

    Core and course are not based on playing a table full of bingo players.

    Sweeney has a FR book dynamic poker similar to what I laid out above. It's a bit nitty in preflop ranges, but good start for beginners.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,158 ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 2018
    If you want to play good poker, you shall avoid bingo poker. For that, you need to be smarter than opponents and thin the field (more players = less chance to bluff). Put pressure on them, put them out of their comfort zone!
    Chris Q wrote: »
    3 Bets are exactly KK+ AK.

    If so, this means there are very few 3bets. If they call any open-bet but see 3bet as very strong (KK+/AK), then you can / have to 3bet with a wide range, both for +EV bluff and isolation. You may have a 3bet range as wide as 20% CO-BB.
    Don't forget: 3bet pot aren't played the same as a 2bet pot.

    Chris Q wrote: »
    12.5x ($25) raise will sometimes get you all folds, other times you get 3 callers.

    You find the pain threshold. Now use it!
  • jfarrow13jfarrow13 Red Chipper Posts: 1,254 ✭✭✭✭
    At some point, opening 12.5x with marginal hands in an attempt to thin the field and pick up BB's with even 20% of hands will lead you to make a tragic mistake. I like Austin's plan of boring old ABC. Do you wanna make money or do you wanna have fun and "outplay" people? Cause if your just printing money doing nothing fancy but ABC poker, your outplaying them aren't you?
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭✭
    jfarrow13 wrote: »
    Step 1. Buy in for $150 (75 BB).
    Step 2. Play a range of 10's + AQ/KQ for a raise to $15.
    Step 3. Play fit or fold on the flop. Flop TP and play it hard and fast unless someone is playing super hard into you and you only got TP.
    Step 4. Limp call hands that make the nuts and dominate other hands. Over limp or limp call for a reasonable price PP to set mine. Limp call Ax nutted hands. Know pot odds so that you know if calling to hit your flushes is worth it.
    Step 5. Get a beer. These games can be frustrating because you think "MAN....I flop TP and he has some junk K4o and I have AK I raised to $15 pre and he still called and hit?" Well, no situation is so crappy that a cold beer doesn't help the situation. Also, just play smartly. If you open AK to $15 and get 3 callers, pot $60 you bet $40 flop and someone raises you....just let it go. Your probably beat if their aren't draws out there. But, often you'll find you can bet bet bet and fish will call it 2+ streets with KJ. I like the 75 BB rule because it's enough to create small SPR where you card selection takes care of the decisions, yet it's enough BB to punish them for being loose with their pre-flop selection.

    Question: what do you do when you get deeper-stacked? This is a quick primer for being short-stacked, but its efficacy is limited until you double-up.

    Or am I missing something?
  • jfarrow13jfarrow13 Red Chipper Posts: 1,254 ✭✭✭✭
    You are correct. Once you double up, God help us we are forced to play poker. To which I'd still just keep my range strong, same strategy, but just only use more nutted hands for when betting gets big. I still wouldn't try to bluff fish that won't fold. I'd just use strong hands to continue to chunk away 20-80 BB's.
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 4,169 ✭✭✭✭✭
    If you don't know why what you're doing in the Course or Core works, you end up with questions like this.

    Rote strategy sucks $1 casino chips.
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
    persuadeo wrote: »
    If you don't know why what you're doing in the Course or Core works, you end up with questions like this.

    Rote strategy sucks $1 casino chips.

    What does this mean?

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