Floor ruling: Call or all-in?

moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,595 ✭✭✭✭
It's heads-up at the river.

Player A bets.
Player B raises.

Player A tosses in a chip and says, "XXXXX".
Player B turns over his cards as soon as he hears Player A.

Player A stops the table right away and says, "I said 'All-in.'" (Player A is a reg., not an angle-shooter. He is Asian, and he speaks in a soft voice.) Two other players on that end of the table say, "I heard him say, 'All-in'", too."

Player B, also a reg. who doesn't angle-shoot, says, "I thought he said 'Call.'"

Dealer says, "I thought you said 'Call.', too."

Player A says that Player B turned his cards over so quickly that there was never an opportunity for him to clarify and the dealer never asked for a clarification, essential given that everyone else -- except for Player B -- said that they heard "All-in".

Floor was called.

So, what is the ruling -- All-in or Call?

Comments

  • kageykagey Red Chipper, KINGOFTAGS Posts: 2,205 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Player B should had confirmed what the bet was before turning over his cards.
    Dealer is the eyes and ears of the table - if he doesn't hear "All In" and no addition chips were put in the pot - then it should be a call.
    Poker is a visual AND audible game... if Player A did not make it clear that he's raising - then it's his fault.

    If I were floor - I'd tell Player B that Player A is all in... does he want to call or fold.
    that would be a fair ruling if Player A is never angle-shooting.
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 915 -
    Oh this is a good one.

    Given what Player B heard, I think you have to go with what the dealer heard, particularly when a single tossed-in chip looks more like a call than an all-in. (I understand it can be both, but without clear verbal intent the default has to be a call).

    kagey's solution is interesting in that it throws the decision back to Player B, but I would not be happy in Player B's shoes with that ruling (unless I had the nuts obv). Plus I'm a bit skeptical how we know if someone is never angle-shooting.

    I'll see if I can get a floor to chime in.

    Moderation In Moderation
  • Doug HullDoug Hull RCP Coach Posts: 1,599 -
    People should endeavor to play in such a way that we never need an instant replay camera.

    Even if A said "All-in", if he said it in such a way that it was ambiguous then he has created a space where there is ambiguity. The Floor should always rule against those that make ambiguous actions.

    Angle shots are all based on taking ambiguous actions and then waiting for more information to clarify the meaning. Even if this player is "never angle shooting" if the Floor is ever going to rule against an angle shooter, then they must rule against this player.

    What does "ruling against player A" in this spot mean? The only question is did he call or did he raise. When there is doubt, the lower amount of action (the call) should be chosen. Implicitly in this Player B had plenty of opportunity to agree to calling the All-in so this helps confirm that making this a simple call is the right decision.

    It is relatively simple to make crisp, unambiguous actions. Do that.
    Co-founder Red Chip Poker,
    Author Poker Plays You Can Use
    Author Poker Workbook for Math Geeks
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,172 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Player's B cards didn't change and has an option to call the 3bet all in. As long as one person heard the player say all in then it's all in.
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 915 -
    edited June 9
    Austin wrote: »
    Player's B cards didn't change and has an option to call the 3bet all in. As long as one person heard the player say all in then it's all in.

    I dunno man, you know what's it's like in a real game. Background noise, distractions. Did this one person hear "all-in" or "call"?
    Moderation In Moderation
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,172 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Player A tosses in a chip and says, "XXXXX".

    If this means "tosses in a chip and then says ...", then it's a call. Verbal and physical action are both binding, but when they conflict the one that happens first trumps. If he meant to go all in, then tossing in a single chip is a really bad idea and is meaningless really if he said all-in first or simultaneously.

    If the chip was literally in the air when he said all-in, then we give Player B the option to call or fold. He actually still has that option - we don't need a ruling - since turning your cards over heads up really is not action at all.

  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 915 -
    Okay so those of you who met me via my allegedly comedic writing may recall my go-to guy on all rulings is "The Guvnor." Well, he's a real guy (long-time poker room manager on two continents) and he just woke up and sent me an answer:

    It's a call.

    In order of reasoning...

    1. Ambiguous: rule - lesser of two evils.
    2. Player (in hand) heard call, dealer heard call.
    3. One chip facing action tends to be a call. If you want it to be something else, make it clear.

    Not saying that's definitive guys, but I'm convinced it's the decision you'll get in Vegas, and in the ol' gaffs of The Guvnor back in the city of my birth.

    Moderation In Moderation
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 915 -
    I imagine the most common reaction to all this is "when your money is on the line, sparky, how about you speak up!"

    Don't give the refs an opportunity to make a bad call.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • Fernando TFernando T Red Chipper Posts: 84 ✭✭
    In my opinion:
    First, he toasted only one chip which is a call

    And second, I agree with Doug:
    Doug Hull wrote: »
    The Floor should always rule against those that make ambiguous actions A

  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 915 -
    I found Doug's definitive comment on this:

    "Ambiguities are where angle shots live."

    Context: https://redchippoker.com/interlude-rules/
    Moderation In Moderation
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 1,427 ✭✭✭✭
    Fernando T wrote: »
    In my opinion:
    First, he toasted only one chip which is a call

    Without oral notification, yes.

    But when you announce all-in, you have to move some chips - at least one - in the middle for the camera to see an action has been made. And only some casino forces to move ALL the chips and refuses only 1 to validate the all-in (for the camera to see, again).

    For the ruling, I agree with @jeffnc
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,172 ✭✭✭✭✭
    This happened to me yesterday, but the player didn't flip his hand over, again this is not an action changing the hand.

    Pre Flop a couple limpers and hero raises AA to $25 and get 1 caller from the BB.

    Flop ($50) As8c 3c
    Bb check
    Hero bets $20
    BB calls
    Turn ($90) As 8c 3c 9d
    Check x2
    River ($90) As 8c 3c 9d 4s
    Guy bets $125
    Hero says all in and moves a stack into the middle.

    Dealer counts out the other guys bet and says, "It's $125." I tell the teller I said all in, not how much. This dealer is usually one that acts too fast and makes a lot of mistakes. The dealer tosses me the all in button and the guy tank calls, "you got the ace?" He flips over 9c4c which I played tricky with top set thinking he likely only had 2nd pair. Could of easily been bet bet bet. River was $430 all in so pretty good size raise where I didn't leverage stacks well because of my read.

    To me it's almost like an angle shoot implying the other guy called and not clarifying "he called?" I could see how this goes both ways, especially if the "all in" player saw the other players hand. If he had close to the nuts I would give him the benefit of the doubt.

    Maybe it's best to just say all in and wait for dealer to ask you to put a chip in.
  • SullySully Red Chipper Posts: 703 ✭✭✭
    this whole one chip thing from a mumbler is an angle shoot.. always
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,595 ✭✭✭✭
    Thanks all for your comments.

    I'll first note that I have no doubt that Player A is legit and not an angle-shooter. English is a struggle; he is a reg; and I have never seen him ever do anything that hints at angle-shooting. One can certainly be cautious and suggest that it's an all an act. For the purposes of this thread, though, let's move forward with him as just having not been loud or clear enough.

    Similar with Player B. I can't impugn his motives as trying to get to showdown by turning the cards over ASAP or by lying about what he heard. He seems to be a straight-shooter. So, let's move forward with him acting on what he legitimately thought was a call.

    Player A's case rested on (a) others hearing him say it; (b) the dealer not having time to clarify; and (c) Player B still having options (i.e., to call or fold to the all-in) -- the action didn't change.

    Player B's case rested on (a) Player A not being clear -- the ambiguous declaration (since "call" and "all in" sound similar) and the one-chip toss being key evidence*; and (b) perhaps Player A insisting on it being all-in once Player B's cards were turned over and knowing that he had a better hand [even in principle more than in practice given that this was unlikely given who Player A is].

    *Note: At this casino, a one-chip toss is generally considered a call. Even when a player says "All in", the dealer makes him push forward enough chips to at least cover the preceding bet.

    Put all that together, and the floor ruled as most of y'all suggested: It was unclear, and, in that situation, the responsibility of being clear lies on the person acting.

    For what it's worth, it was other players at the table who seemed most upset that the all-in bet didn't stand. I am confident that's because they looked at Player A as a fish and, figuring that he had the better hand, wanted him to have more chips (one other guy even said as much when Player A got up to go to the restroom shortly thereafter: "Man, I wish he had won all the chips that hand!").

    Players A and B were gracious about it -- no hard feelings either way. Player A turned over his flopped set to beat Player B's flopped two pair. Perhaps most amazing is that these two aggro players didn't get it all in on the flop! :)

    Thanks again, everyone!
  • statskassastatskassa NorwayRed Chipper Posts: 3
  • Dean MDean M Red Chipper Posts: 170 ✭✭✭
    edited June 11
    It is what that particular floor on that particular day says it is - not what a bunch of forum posters pontificate.

    But as Kagey would say "In my games... " :) and in MY games if multiple players heard 'all-in' before the chip hit's the felt, then he's all in and Player B is given the option to call the all-in or fold.
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,172 ✭✭✭✭✭


    Some times the floor leaves it up to the player.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 1,427 ✭✭✭✭
    If we don't want to watch the 24mn50sec of the video, is it a moment to focus on?
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 915 -
    Red wrote: »
    If we don't want to watch the 24mn50sec of the video, is it a moment to focus on?

    The angle shot occurs within the first 30 seconds, but the floor not taking control takes a lot longer.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • Doug HullDoug Hull RCP Coach Posts: 1,599 -
    Watch yourself in California games in general. I see more angle shooting and weak Floor/Dealer policing in a single trip to California than I see in a year in Las Vegas.
    Co-founder Red Chip Poker,
    Author Poker Plays You Can Use
    Author Poker Workbook for Math Geeks
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 915 -
    Doug Hull wrote: »
    Watch yourself in California games in general. I see more angle shooting and weak Floor/Dealer policing in a single trip to California than I see in a year in Las Vegas.

    I know multiple dealers in Vegas who issue a warning when someone is getting angly along the lines of "This isn't LA."
    Moderation In Moderation
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,595 ✭✭✭✭
    Austin wrote: »


    Some times the floor leaves it up to the player.

    Interesting. And complicated.

    1) At first, it seemed obvious: bet, call.

    2) Then I realized that Ryan is one of the guys who runs the tournament. That's why the floor deferred to him. Makes it more awkward since objectivity is more difficult. He's in a brutal spot.

    3) I often see in live-feed games like this banter and joking around, things that players clearly comfortable with each other do but that would NEVER fly in a more formal (even lower-stakes) setting. Mike really could have meant this as a joke. It's still a bet, but it does complicate things.

    In the end, you have to go back to bet, call. If there is ANY ambiguity, as this thread has pointed out clearly, then it's on the person being ambiguous. Cool video, though.
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,172 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Austin wrote: »


    Some times the floor leaves it up to the player.

    Interesting. And complicated.

    1) At first, it seemed obvious: bet, call.

    2) Then I realized that Ryan is one of the guys who runs the tournament. That's why the floor deferred to him. Makes it more awkward since objectivity is more difficult. He's in a brutal spot.

    3) I often see in live-feed games like this banter and joking around, things that players clearly comfortable with each other do but that would NEVER fly in a more formal (even lower-stakes) setting. Mike really could have meant this as a joke. It's still a bet, but it does complicate things.

    In the end, you have to go back to bet, call. If there is ANY ambiguity, as this thread has pointed out clearly, then it's on the person being ambiguous. Cool video, though.

    I honestly do not think it's too complicated. I think Ryan made it complicated due to his friendship with Mike.

    1) Mike has apparently done this a couple times during the show and took the pot down showing his bluffs. Ryan knows this, which is why Ryan checked on the river.

    2) Mike said "All in" and clearly shoved his entire rack into the middle of the table. It wasn't like he was still holding onto the rack and did a pump fake with it pretending to go all in. He literally went ALL IN.

    3) Ryan discusses the other hands Mike did this where he 3 bet J3s flop 552 and Mike shoved all in against Art who folded pocket 8s. This is a critical hand which should make Ryan's decision easier. Like Ryan said, "If Art would of called you when you were bluffing with J3 would you of said you were joking?"

    For me personally I would of made a more complicated deal where Mike pays me $2k which is about 2x the pot, at least the first part of the rack that went into the pot. Give everyone $100 for wasting their time and give Art back the money he lost with 88 vs J3 when apparently he wasn't joking that hand. I haven't watched the full episode yet, but when I do i'll see if I can share the other hands that Mike did this play with leading up to this event.

    Also in terms of playing in California at least in San Jose I do not see much angle shooting going on. There is probably more than Vegas for sure or maybe i'm seeing the angles, but just view whatever he or she is trying to accomplish as weak. Such as reaching for chips then checking. The one thing I do see often is people hiding their larger chips either behind their stack or mixed in with some of their chips. Dealers have been pretty good at having them put it on top or in front of their stacks. Other times dealers just suck where short stack shoves all in which looks like $50-$60 as he has 8-10 yellows ($5 each) and you will see a couple green ($2 each), and a few blue ($1 each). Dealer tosses him the all in button and waits for players to call or fold. I do find that more than half the time in these situations I have to tell the dealer or the player next to me there is a white chip ($100) or a couple black chips ($20 each) in the middle. It is just really bad etiquette in these spots and I would force a floor ruling that the $100 doesn't play since he tried to hide it. I'll ask the floor about it today. I know Bay101 warns people for angle shooting and if you do it a couple of times they will kick you out. Despite NOT being against the rules they do not put up with it very much.

Leave a Comment

BoldItalicStrikethroughOrdered listUnordered list
Emoji
Image
Align leftAlign centerAlign rightToggle HTML viewToggle full pageToggle lights
Drop image/file