$2,500 in a week playing $300NL

2

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  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Red wrote: »
    Austin wrote: »
    Hand #4
    Hero opens JJ to $20 after two limps
    Mp calls
    Bb all in $40 total
    Hero small 4bet to $60
    Mp calls the 40 more.
    Checks down to the river where MP bet $50 and i folded.
    AQ4T7
    Mp Q9o, BB A10o
    Typo corrected

    I don't understand why you lost this one ? Can you explain a) why a small 4bet? b) why check it down postflop?

    small 4bet for value and to iso the short stack with JJ. With AQX on the flop there is not much value to be had with JJ and a $40 side pot.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 1,846 ✭✭✭✭
    I'm not quite sure 4bet JJ on a low stakes table is for value (aka getting many calls from hands against which JJ has more than 50% equity). What range did you give MP preflop when he called your open bet and what range do you think he would give action with ?
    (Try not to be result oriented)

    Then if you want to price him in and play postflop; why did you turn so shy? You played your hand (not your range) and very fit-or-fold... you are better than that!
    What is your 4bet range ? I 4bet extremely rarely and if I do it's polarized. Such range hits AQX strongly and with both range advantage and polarized advantage against a preflop call/call range. So I'd c-bet my entiere range.
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Red wrote: »
    I'm not quite sure 4bet JJ on a low stakes table is for value (aka getting many calls from hands against which JJ has more than 50% equity). What range did you give MP preflop when he called your open bet and what range do you think he would give action with ?
    (Try not to be result oriented)

    Then if you want to price him in and play postflop; why did you turn so shy? You played your hand (not your range) and very fit-or-fold... you are better than that!
    What is your 4bet range ? I 4bet extremely rarely and if I do it's polarized. Such range hits AQX strongly and with both range advantage and polarized advantage against a preflop call/call range. So I'd c-bet my entiere range.

    Disagree with playing my range vs players who don't fold in this spot. When he calls preflop and I hold JJ I think he has a lot of Axs, 55+, suited broadways, etc. Not a good flop for my hand. For my range yes, but don't need to play my range, I need to play my hand vs their range. And on this board callers range is likely better than my hand.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 1,846 ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 2018
    I don't see any MP (55-JJ, QX) calling on such flop. Also And I think you can make many AX fold with 2 bullets esp. if it's a weakling AX (AT or weaker). I see many fold opportunities - and JJ being surely your worst hands here (or do you have worst than JJ here ?) it's ok to fire it for bluff.

    Also if you think Villain is not going to fold much postflop, do you think it's the same preflop ? If yes, you gave him the deal of the night to call preflop for 20$ more.

    And I really don't understand why you refuse to play your range and keep the nose in your cards only ?!?
    You need to be balanced, and to be balanced you need to play a range, not your cards.
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Red wrote: »
    I don't see any MP (55-JJ, QX) calling on such flop. Also And I think you can make many AX fold with 2 bullets esp. if it's a weakling AX (AT or weaker). I see many fold opportunities - and JJ being surely your worst hands here (or do you have worst than JJ here ?) it's ok to fire it for bluff.

    Also if you think Villain is not going to fold much postflop, do you think it's the same preflop ? If yes, you gave him the deal of the night to call preflop for 20$ more.

    And I really don't understand why you refuse to play your range and keep the nose in your cards only ?!?
    You need to be balanced, and to be balanced you need to play a range, not your cards.

    Hero raises to $20
    BTN calls $20
    BB all in $40
    Hero raises to $60
    BTN $40 to win $140 getting 3.5:1 not the greatest deal in the world with Q9o.

    For someone who is willing to stick in $60 preflop with Q9o is not going to fold Ax when they flop top pair. Probably not going to fold any gutter either. Idk what players you play with, but my player pool is not folding top pair and not folding 2nd pair or a gutter for 1 bullet. I've seen multiple players today stack off ..... give you an example for tonight's session.

    Fish UTG+1 opens $15
    MP1, CO, SB all call.
    Flop ($64) :AC: :TS: :4S:
    SB checks
    UTG1 bets $30
    MP1 raises to $65
    CO and SB fold
    UTG1 calls $35
    Turn ($194) :2C:
    UTG1 bets $30
    MP1 calls
    River ($254) :6S:
    UTG1 ($400) bets $40
    MP1 ($800) raises to $140
    UTG1 calls As7h
    MP1 shows :JS: :8S:

    Is there really a point in being balanced in low stakes $300NL? Not really when it seems like 90% of the pots are 4-6 ways. A bunch of new faces everyday a bunch of clueless players with 50% vpips. All I need to do is focus on how each player is playing and player a tighter range than they do and value bet when I think i'm ahead. There is no point in balancing my 3 bets with A4s when players are this bad.

    Here is another outrages hand!!! I am still speechless as the guy said "he wanted to see his bluff"
    Mp1 ($400) opens $9 :KH: :7H:
    HJ ($350) calls $9
    BTN calls $9
    SB calls $9
    BB 3bets to $59
    MP1 calls $50
    HJ calls $50
    BTN & SB folds
    Flop ($195) :AH: :QD: :3C:
    BB ($100) checks :AC: :TC:
    MP1 bets $85 :KH: :7H:
    HJ all in $291
    BB folds
    Mp1 calls
    board bricks out like :6D: :5C:

    HJ wins with the crabs 33.

    Mp1 player is hard to come by, but these are the players I deal with everyday. Just crazy stupid players. Other players wouldn't shut up and kept berating him for his bad play. Honestly they don't understand themselves how to play the game and should not be turning down free money like that.

    Range is good for heads up pots maybe three way pots where SPR is a little deeper than 5. When your dealing with $200 stacks everyday with $60 in the middle, you can't just barrel off. Better off check raising all in. Or calling their $15 bets getting 5:1 and making your flush then just betting half pot on turn and river when it hits. Like seriously just very straight forward play at this level. Thats how I was so consistent in the beginning before trying to play aggro and rep my range. I just played my hand with a standard cbet on boards that favored my range, and when I was called or if it was MW I played my hand vs their range. They don't understand I can have QQ+ and they can't. They just see they have top pair and "i'm probably bluffing with AK."
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
    21mm4f9opp9x.png

    My last 17 sessions, i've won 7 and lost 10 for -$3,003 (10 buyins). My play has been sloppy and forced to some extent with hands like KQ, AJ, AQ, KT, QJ, etc. Building big pots with low SPR situations. Gambling way too much with hands that are like 30%. Value owning myself with TP because players are limping AJ, AK, KQ, etc and I think KJ on K93 has some good value vs a limping range. Nope, they have 99, 33, K9o, KQ, AK all in their range. Need to stick to two streets of value here with KJ in general. Going back to how I use to play before this month started and hopefully get back to a lower variance game with consistent results. Luckily for me I dropped down from 2-3-5 and i'm slightly over rolled for 1-2-3, so the downswing doesn't hurt as much as it should. Don't get me wrong, when you go from winning around 80%+ of your sessions to under 50% it is very painful. I had a swing like this a couple years ago that took about a month to recover and it was basically just running bad at the time.

    Here is my worst beat of the day.
    Hero UTG :KH: :KD: opens $15
    UTG+1 calls
    HJ calls $15
    BTN calls $15
    BB all in $76
    Hero calls $61 more.
    Everyone else folds

    River ($197) :KC: :TH: :9S: :QD: :JC:
    BB shows :8C: :AS:

    KK is still my biggest losing hand over the past two weeks. Think I posted my other time I lost a big pot with it vs a drunk guy.

    UTG Hero opens $10 :KS: :KD:
    2 callers
    BTN 3 bets to $30
    Hero 4 bets to $120
    the 2 callers fold
    BTN 5 bets to $210 (min) "We can get all in if you want"
    Hero "says ok" 6 bets all in $740 effective (i covered villain)
    BTN snap calls :AH: :2C:

    River ($1500) :AD: :9H: :TS: :4C: :3D:

    I know I over played a lot of hands the last two weeks or this month, I think I will quickly recover over the next month or so of play. Have some family stuff planned coming up and a trip at the end of the month that will delay my progress, but hopefully I can get back on track or at least knock off $2k by end of the month. I mean with these types of players.... Some times I wonder why I am not 90%+
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 1,846 ✭✭✭✭
    Austin wrote: »
    Hero raises to $20
    BTN calls $20
    BB all in $40
    Hero raises to $60
    BTN $40 to win $140 getting 3.5:1 not the greatest deal in the world with Q9o.

    It's not the greatest deal in the world. But it's a low stakes (bad?) player player who is going to see he has to pay 40 to win "a lot", closing the action and (even if he doesn't understand all implications) has position.

    40$ is not pressure on him to told anything. It's a low price for him to call super wide. When YOU want to play postflop with him.

    If you want a fold, you have to raise bigger. If I had 99 or AQo and wanted to iso, I'd raise to 100-120$, not 60$.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 1,846 ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 2018
    Austin wrote: »
    Is there really a point in being balanced in low stakes $300NL? Not really when it seems like 90% of the pots are 4-6 ways. A bunch of new faces everyday a bunch of clueless players with 50% vpips. All I need to do is focus on how each player is playing and player a tighter range than they do and value bet when I think i'm ahead. There is no point in balancing my 3 bets with A4s when players are this bad.

    If you're not balanced, then your bluff are going to get called too much or they are going to fold against your value hands.

    If you only 3bet premium hands (~JJ+/AK), they will fold too much and you never get paid. Add some KJo, AQs, 22, A4s in your 3bet range... and even if they don't understand frequencies, ranges or position, they will notice you're 3betting "too often" and can't have AA all the time. And they will make mistakes, which is all good for your winrate.

    Same as I don't allow 4-6 MW hands, except when I'm with a marginal but with nutted potential hand in CO/BU or BB (like 75s). If I don't want to go MW, I thin the field by using the pain threshold and raises. Adapting my strategy to the table and Villains.
  • kageykagey Red Chipper, KINGOFTAGS Posts: 2,241 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Austin wrote: »

    small 4bet for value and to iso the short stack with JJ.

    min 3-betting JJ is a HORRIBLE way to play this hand

    if your coach can't explain why to you - then you need to get a new coach
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
    kagey wrote: »
    Austin wrote: »

    small 4bet for value and to iso the short stack with JJ.

    min 3-betting JJ is a HORRIBLE way to play this hand

    Min 4 bet btw, as the BB shove was the 3bet.

    if your coach can't explain why to you - then you need to get a new coach

    Snowie min 4 bets JJ I don't see a problem with it. Getting someone to put extra money into the pot with their regular calling range? Let's build a calling range and work from there. As everyone seems to think I want BTN to fold his hand and JJ does better being turned into a bluff and forcing everyone to fold and isolating the all in player.

    Calling range 30% : 22-TT, A2s-AKs, A7o-AKo, 75s-KJs, J9o+, Q9o+, K9o+ 54s-KQs, J8s+, Q8s+, K9s+, etc.

    JJ has a 72% Equity advantage against this range, and the advice i'm receiving is to raise large and make button fold?

    Yes, I lost the hand, but I am not going to be result oriented about it. Still need to start building a side pot vs weaker hands. It was an unfortunate flop, but as if the flop came J9x or 9xx, T9x etc I would likely make some money.

    Please explain what hands you expect BTN to call $100 with given that range?

    I honestly think people's advice on this thread regarding my JJ hand is pretty bad with no reasoning behind it.
    @red If you only 3bet premium hands (~JJ+/AK), they will fold too much and you never get paid. Add some KJo, AQs, 22, A4s in your 3bet range...

    If they are calling $60 with Q9o what is the point of being balanced? You think A4s will help my image? Range just needs to be merged with like AJ+ KQ+ 99+ vs these players who never fold. Or just top value heavy and see flops with these medium holdings and play well post flop.

    This strategy you all play at $2/$5 does not work well at $1/$3 and my downswing proves it. I've posted several HH on here where I was 3 betting light and it just doesn't work well. Way less FE than people think and stacks are just not deep enough where If I make a 4x 3bet or 5x 3bet as a squeeze i'm priced in vs the short stacks. 3bets just need to be for value at this level.

    Here is an example of absurd play, which is why I think polarizing my range doesn't make any sense and it just needs to be for strictly value.
    UTG raises to $10
    Mp1 ($60) calls $10
    Hj ($150) calls $10
    Co calls $10
    BTN ($400) makes it $40
    UTG folds
    MP1 calls $30
    HJ calls $30
    CO folds
    Flop ($140) J 8 3
    MP1 ($20) checks
    HJ ($110) bets $25
    BTN folds
    MP1 calls $20 all in

    HJ shows A3o, MP1 shows 85s.

    Why and the world would I polarize my range against these people who don't fold? If there is a level below 1c/2c this is it.

    On tables where the dynamics are different and people are playing tighter I can show a bluff or two.

    There was another player yesterday who I saw limp in From MP1 with 72o, but the next 5 hands he just folded. What in the world is his folding? Just needs to be ABC strategy here.
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 2018
    atzeep4iuns0.png

    Snowie says two things about this play.
    1) .25 pot preflop is higher EV than making a PSB.
    2) I should be over limping. We will ignore this based on live dynamics.
    3) when BB goes all in I should be making it a 1/4 pot raise and not potting it like i've been told to do. 1/4th pot would be $67 here.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 1,846 ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 2018
    @Austin
    I don't want to be rude or else, I really like you, but let me be honest.

    I've the feeling you've no strategy. That you just push button and see if it works. And then complaining that Villains refuse to let you win. When I read your hand reviews, it looks to met that your play isn't well adapted to your games and Villains... either you didn't plan ahead, or you plan failed and you're not able to see or correct its flaws, repeating the mistakes.

    At the end, I'm only an enlightened recreational player. I can't support you more than helping you questioning your game and giving some advises based on my own experiences. Maybe it's time to look for a coach ?

    Post-scriptum: I don't /can't play 2/5 (anymore yet). I play small to micro stakes in live games, where my Villains are as bad and sticky as yours. And against them I'm still able to force them to play my game and able to abuse them. You can too then! So don't try to cloud the issue by using the stakes argument.
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Red wrote: »
    @Austin
    I don't want to be rude or else, I really like you, but let me be honest.

    I've the feeling you've no strategy. That you just push button and see if it works. And then complaining that Villains refuse to let you win. When I read your hand reviews, it looks to met that your play isn't well adapted to your games and Villains... either you didn't plan ahead, or you plan failed and you're not able to see or correct its flaws, repeating the mistakes.

    At the end, I'm only an enlightened recreational player. I can't support you more than helping you questioning your game and giving some advises based on my own experiences. Maybe it's time to look for a coach ?

    Post-scriptum: I don't /can't play 2/5 (anymore yet). I play small to micro stakes in live games, where my Villains are as bad and sticky as yours. And against them I'm still able to force them to play my game and able to abuse them. You can too then! So don't try to cloud the issue by using the stakes argument.

    Hard for one not to have a strategy and be as consistent as I am. I know many books, coaches, videos, articles, etc all talk about polarizing your ranges. I have posted many HH of such and some merged ones as well. It's not really a stake argument, but more of a stack depth argument. When half the table has 30-66bb, one player has 200bb, and two others have 100bb, it's not the easiest thing in the world to isolate and apply pain thresholds and pick up dead money. I think my games may be more sticky than most others. Maybe someone that also plays in the Bay area can confirm this compared to other low stake vegas games. If you watch LATB where the line up is "action packed." Some of those line ups are set up that way for entertainment value, but the games I play most of the lines up are naturally like that. Against 100bb stacks I would be in complete agreement with everything you said about isolate bigger and apply pain threshold, use polarize sizing etc. For now I am fighting a bunch of 50bb stacks, so 90% at least of my range needs to be for value. As @Wiki_Leaks said, you can't out play a short stack and they will realize their equity nearly 100% of the time.

    My strategy just comes from fundamental play, which I am still lacking some of. Not set mining vs short stacks, not chasing draws or getting involved with SCs in low SPR situations, having range advantage using top 15% or so of hands vs players limping with 30% of hands (which doesn't include the top 5%). I am well aware of positions of the limpers and what position I raised from. HU pots are much different than playing honest in MW pots.

    Here is a hand I played last week where I was exploiting a tag with a capped range and using my position to represent a hand.

    MP (Tag /$300) opens $12
    BTN (Tag / $400) calls $12
    Hero BB ($500) calls $12

    Flop ($38) :7H: :7S: :8C:
    Hero checks
    MP bets $25
    BTN calls $25
    Hero calls $25
    Turn ($113) :AH:
    MP ($263) bets $45
    BTN folds
    Hero raises to $155

    How comfortable is MP now? Will he easily stack off AJ-AK? What does BB have that could possibly check raise this turn and over call on the flop? What is MP best hand? 88 or 77 would check the flop some of the time.

    Where my strategy vs fish is pure value, I will use my position, range, their range, and stack sizes to my advantage when the opportunity presents itself vs the correct player.
  • talonjohntalonjohn Red Chipper Posts: 56 ✭✭
    Austin wrote: »
    Hand#2
    Hj opens $15
    Btn calls $15
    Hero 3bets QQ to $45
    *both were under $200 so tried to price them in
    Hj folds
    Btn calls all in $42 total A9s, spikes his ace.

    This is a spot where I always get criticized (maybe rightly so) for 3-betting small even considering small stacks.

  • kageykagey Red Chipper, KINGOFTAGS Posts: 2,241 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Hand #4
    Hero opens JJ to $20 after two limps
    Mp calls
    Bb all in $40 total
    Hero small 4bet to $60

    What's the purpose of your 4-betting?
    If it's just to build a pot from oop - then, congratulations - you've done so.
    If it's to isolate, you've failed miserably.

    Me?
    I'd be 4-betting to get it heads up vs. short stack and take down this pot.
    Plain and simple.
    if he's got QQ-AA, then fine. I'm paying him off to the tune of $40.
    There's now $60 in dead money - and we stand to have the best hand.
    I'm 4-betting to force MP to fold... (which based on his actions up until now tells me that he's got a "meh" hand)
    you don't want $60 is free money?
    I do!

    Austin wrote: »
    Snowie min 4 bets JJ I don't see a problem with it. Getting someone to put extra money into the pot with their regular calling range?

    there's a couple of secrets about Snowie that I'm going to share with you:

    1.) Snowie is a program that's only as good as the person putting in the information. Since, as players, we can never be certain as to what a player will do with their ranges until the hand has played out - we can never really know what will work or not. Snowie assumes that players are playing somewhat "standard"... but live players deviate from this so much (because many play by "feel") that Snowie can't anticipate this nor compensate for it either.
    Stop using Snowie as a crutch.

    2.) Snowie doesn't play live poker in our low limit games.
    Until Snowie sits his ass down at my table and puts down $300 in a ⅓ game, Snowie is making wild-ass assumptions that will prevent you from making max value and make you exploitable. Snowie doesn't expect ranges to be inelastic nor to be off-the-chart stupid. But I do. I see guys open :6H: :2H: from MP in our deep game. Not always, but sometimes. How does Snowie compensate for that? How does Snowie know a player's pain threshold?

    The name of cash games is to maximize your winnings when you've got a monster hand. I know you've seen my post about how when we have JJ, the flop will bring an A, K or Q nearly 55% of the time. So, why would EVER invite any other player into your pot. Yes, this is YOUR POT! You built it... now protect it!

    The name of cash games is also to help your opponents make mistakes. The more mistakes they make, the more profit we will make over the long term.

    Let's review the action again:
    Hero 4-bets so small that it doesn't even feel like a 4-bet....
    Mp has to call the 40 more - to win 160
    how much equity does MP need to call?
    40/160 = ¼ = 25%
    what hands do you think has 25%?
    the answer is: A LOT
    so who's making a mistake by calling 40 to win 120?
    nobody.
    congratulations... you've just helped V call your 4-bet correctly.

    Now, let's consider one more item:
    What if we had 55? Or 89s? Or AKos?
    Would we still bet small and invite the world to come and outflop us?
    What are we doing with our marginal hands - or bluffs?
    Shouldn't we play ALL our hands very similarly?
    For a 4-bet of $120 - we can get ALL these hands heads up for with a chance to win $60.
    Think about that.
    For $40, we have a chance to win a $60 pot with ANY of our opening hands IF we 4-bet strong. Sounds to me like we'd be freaking printing Dollar Bills here!
    Best of all - since bb was the last aggressor (in the original pot), we don't even have to show our hand on the river. We can just quietly muck if don't hit our hand.

    Poker is about going for the throat when opportunities present themselves.
    When we have a read on an opponent that he's weak - we're doing ourselves a disservice by inviting him into our pots by betting small and asking him to outdraw us.
    What's more... he's going to have position on us... for God sakes...
    ...why would we ever want him to tag along?
    Are we looking to have another bad session?

    Austin wrote: »
    For now I am fighting a bunch of 50bb stacks, so 90% at least of my range needs to be for value. As @Wiki_Leaks said, you can't out play a short stack and they will realize their equity nearly 100% of the time.

    Patrick didn't say this... I did here:
    kagey wrote: »
    You can't outplay a short stack post... plain and simple. He's going to realize his equity nearly 100% of the time.

    That's why when you've got a premium hand like JJ... be prepared to go to the felt with it agains a "meh" range. Make them call big bets with lesser holdings and scoop some chips!!!
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
    kagey wrote: »
    Hand #4
    Hero opens JJ to $20 after two limps
    Mp calls
    Bb all in $40 total
    Hero small 4bet to $60

    What's the purpose of your 4-betting?
    If it's just to build a pot from oop - then, congratulations - you've done so.
    If it's to isolate, you've failed miserably.

    Me?
    I'd be 4-betting to get it heads up vs. short stack and take down this pot.
    Plain and simple.
    if he's got QQ-AA, then fine. I'm paying him off to the tune of $40.
    There's now $60 in dead money - and we stand to have the best hand.
    I'm 4-betting to force MP to fold... (which based on his actions up until now tells me that he's got a "meh" hand)
    you don't want $60 is free money?
    I do!

    Austin wrote: »
    Snowie min 4 bets JJ I don't see a problem with it. Getting someone to put extra money into the pot with their regular calling range?

    there's a couple of secrets about Snowie that I'm going to share with you:

    1.) Snowie is a program that's only as good as the person putting in the information. Since, as players, we can never be certain as to what a player will do with their ranges until the hand has played out - we can never really know what will work or not. Snowie assumes that players are playing somewhat "standard"... but live players deviate from this so much (because many play by "feel") that Snowie can't anticipate this nor compensate for it either.
    Stop using Snowie as a crutch.

    2.) Snowie doesn't play live poker in our low limit games.
    Until Snowie sits his ass down at my table and puts down $300 in a ⅓ game, Snowie is making wild-ass assumptions that will prevent you from making max value and make you exploitable. Snowie doesn't expect ranges to be inelastic nor to be off-the-chart stupid. But I do. I see guys open :6H: :2H: from MP in our deep game. Not always, but sometimes. How does Snowie compensate for that? How does Snowie know a player's pain threshold?

    The name of cash games is to maximize your winnings when you've got a monster hand. I know you've seen my post about how when we have JJ, the flop will bring an A, K or Q nearly 55% of the time. So, why would EVER invite any other player into your pot. Yes, this is YOUR POT! You built it... now protect it!

    The name of cash games is also to help your opponents make mistakes. The more mistakes they make, the more profit we will make over the long term.

    Let's review the action again:
    Hero 4-bets so small that it doesn't even feel like a 4-bet....
    Mp has to call the 40 more - to win 160
    how much equity does MP need to call?
    40/160 = ¼ = 25%
    what hands do you think has 25%?
    the answer is: A LOT
    so who's making a mistake by calling 40 to win 120?
    nobody.
    congratulations... you've just helped V call your 4-bet correctly.

    Now, let's consider one more item:
    What if we had 55? Or 89s? Or AKos?
    Would we still bet small and invite the world to come and outflop us?
    What are we doing with our marginal hands - or bluffs?
    Shouldn't we play ALL our hands very similarly?
    For a 4-bet of $120 - we can get ALL these hands heads up for with a chance to win $60.
    Think about that.
    For $40, we have a chance to win a $60 pot with ANY of our opening hands IF we 4-bet strong. Sounds to me like we'd be freaking printing Dollar Bills here!
    Best of all - since bb was the last aggressor (in the original pot), we don't even have to show our hand on the river. We can just quietly muck if don't hit our hand.

    Poker is about going for the throat when opportunities present themselves.
    When we have a read on an opponent that he's weak - we're doing ourselves a disservice by inviting him into our pots by betting small and asking him to outdraw us.
    What's more... he's going to have position on us... for God sakes...
    ...why would we ever want him to tag along?
    Are we looking to have another bad session?

    Austin wrote: »
    For now I am fighting a bunch of 50bb stacks, so 90% at least of my range needs to be for value. As @Wiki_Leaks said, you can't out play a short stack and they will realize their equity nearly 100% of the time.

    Patrick didn't say this... I did here:
    kagey wrote: »
    You can't outplay a short stack post... plain and simple. He's going to realize his equity nearly 100% of the time.

    That's why when you've got a premium hand like JJ... be prepared to go to the felt with it agains a "meh" range. Make them call big bets with lesser holdings and scoop some chips!!!

    By shoving and forcing BTN to fold there is only $20 in dead money. Risking 40 to win $100 or $60 profit. Still seems like playing JJ scared just because q k a hit 55% of the time. I'm just not convinced forcing btn to only continue with premiums is optimal. Your point is loud and clear that you want HU and playing against BB with $20 in dead money is more than enough of a pot. I forgot how much BTN had like $200 or so I think. I would like a shot to play for that $200 as well or I guess $140 after he puts in 60 (120 main \ 40 side).

    Maybe ill come back to this hand in a month.
  • kageykagey Red Chipper, KINGOFTAGS Posts: 2,241 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 2018
    Austin wrote: »
    By shoving and forcing BTN to fold there is only $20 in dead money. Risking 40 to win $100 or $60 profit. Still seems like playing JJ scared just because q k a hit 55% of the time. I'm just not convinced forcing btn to only continue with premiums is optimal.
    Maybe ill come back to this hand in a month.

    I don't know why you keep talking about forcing the BTN to fold... your post stated that only MP called...
    and since you're between the BB and MP... I can only assume you were in EP
    maybe you're confusing a few hands - as you originally posted that you had QQ when you really had JJ???

    if V IS in the button... and he simply called your PFR, you can easily assume that he doesn't have AA, KK or AK... maybe not even QQ & AQ
    and he should be super wide....
    so, what's left in his range?
    garbage
    "meh" hands that are trying to realize their equity
    hands like Ace-crap, King-small and Queen-crap that he hopes might hit something.

    raising JJ is not "playing scared" in any way
    it's...
    a.) getting value for a top 5 hand
    b.) creating your table image as a strong player who's not f**king around
    c.) forcing your opponents to make mistakes
    d.) protecting your opening range

    playing scared is shoving pre because you don't know what to do on flops... kind of like what the bb did (as he's got no fold equity)
    betting big with big premiums (and bluffs) is a way to win your unfair share of pots
    f**k equities! that's playing bingo poker.
    we shouldn't care about getting to showdown.
    where's the skill in that?
    we should be in capitalization/equity denial when we've got position and big hands.
    otherwise, we're playing the same game/style as our opponents... who obviously don't seem to know much about constructing hand ranges....

    anyway...
    good idea to review this later
    get some distance from this
    look at it with fresh eyes
    hit flopzillas or piosolver or some other software, and play around with ranges.
    if V has $200 behind - we should be targeting that, imo
    GL
  • bigburge10bigburge10 Red Chipper Posts: 1,310 ✭✭✭✭
    Austin wrote: »
    My last 17 sessions, i've won 7 and lost 10 for -$3,003 (10 buyins). My play has been sloppy and forced to some extent with hands like KQ, AJ, AQ, KT, QJ, etc. Building big pots with low SPR situations. Gambling way too much with hands that are like 30%. Value owning myself with TP

    This is what happens when you force a historic comeback over a week's time. Desperation sets in and the downswing deepens. Time for a break, one week minimum.
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Putting together a couple of winning sessions. Small, but hopefully continues. Not rushing or forcing anything. Letting the game come to me and taking the pots that come my way.

    I find snowie helps lower variance but also playing as tight as it suggest makes it hard to get action at times. There are huge whales folding to my 5bb iso raises. All comes over time though.
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Was playing six handed.
    Co open 10
    Btn call 10
    Sb ($700) call 10
    Hero ($600) As7s call 10
    Flop ($40) Ks8hJs
    Sb bet 15
    Hero raise to 40
    Btn all in $76
    Sb call
    Hero call
    Turn (268) Qs
    Sb bet $25
    Hero call $25
    River ($268 +$50) Ks Js 8h Qs Tc

    Sb bet $140
    Hero all in $529
    Sb call AdQh

    Was long 12 hr session after being stuck two buyins managed to come up about 1.5 buyin. Being stuck about half way through my session was mostly due to poor preflop hand selection. Got involved in a big pot where I had QTo on 986, I cbet 1\4th pot four ways, mostly cause table wasn't aggro and wanted to give myself a good price, btn raised to 60 and I called for implied odds knowing he has a set or 98s most likely. Turn J giving me the nuts and I check raise all in vs 66, board pairs on river putting me in a deep hole.
  • jfarrow13jfarrow13 Red Chipper Posts: 1,245 ✭✭✭✭
    Let this challenge go man. Take 2-3 weeks off. I haven't been back since I posted my middle of the year graph. I missed it at first, now I don't at all. TBH I won't go back until I feel I really want to. That "I GOTTA GET IT BACK" mentality makes you play bad.

    Liberate yourself.
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
    jfarrow13 wrote: »
    Let this challenge go man. Take 2-3 weeks off. I haven't been back since I posted my middle of the year graph. I missed it at first, now I don't at all. TBH I won't go back until I feel I really want to. That "I GOTTA GET IT BACK" mentality makes you play bad.

    Liberate yourself.

    Honestly im fine. Usually only need 1 day off to study maybe 2 at the most. I've put together 4 straight winning sessions now, Still not near my peak, but im chipping away. My mental game is probably 80% of where it should be. As I restated, not trying to make it all back in a week. Letting the wins come to me and playing a lower variance small ball approach. Estimate 3-4 weeks before I'm really at my peak again, but if that doesn't happen I'm ok. Not rushing anything right now. The hours I put in whether win or lose still equal to my long term hourly. If I put in 8 hours it will be $160-$240 long run for that day despite if im +$1000 or -$1000. All evens out to my hourly.
  • jfarrow13jfarrow13 Red Chipper Posts: 1,245 ✭✭✭✭
    Ya, I think I made my down swing worse by trying to play big body poker. Like I was up $200 at one session and was like ITS NOT ENOUGH. I ended up losing $400.
  • jfarrow13jfarrow13 Red Chipper Posts: 1,245 ✭✭✭✭
    Lol made the same mistake today. Up $500 in an hour, lost it all $300 buy-in included in 2 hours. Sigh.
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
    jfarrow13 wrote: »
    Lol made the same mistake today. Up $500 in an hour, lost it all $300 buy-in included in 2 hours. Sigh.

    I've been on a nice upswing, nothing too interesting though, taking down small and medium pots. Made back over half my loss so far.
  • jfarrow13jfarrow13 Red Chipper Posts: 1,245 ✭✭✭✭
    After having 2 sets and QQ on a really scare board in which I made a nice river call, I ran into trips twice, from the same dude, when I had overpairs. At least the second time I didn't pay him.

    Then lost a $650 pot against the buzzsaw, AA vs KK, even though I don't hate how I played it, the defining fact was that he didn't 4-bet it, so I felt he was more weighted to QQ than AA. To make matters worse, he celebrated the hand like he'd made the sickest call of his life.

    He opens $15, I 3-bet BU $40, folds back to him he calls.
    Pot $80
    Flop 6 4 2r
    He leads $75, I call
    Turn 6 he leads $100.
    Smaller sizing, I feel like it's probably AA-JJ. I don't think this guy would turn AK or AQ into a bluff. I he has about $220 left. I tank for a while, thinking about well, will QQ call it off? Obviously AA should snap it off. Since it's 50/50, I think that I am gonna pay him off on any river, and I think that QQ or JJ might be scared to bet again on the river, but may call off on the turn, I ship it. He tanks for like 30 seconds talking about "man....like you took so long to bet. Are you Hollywooding a 6?".....fuck....also WTF why would I ever have a 6 here in a 3-bet pot? He calls, I say "aces?" yup, I table KK, he leaps up and claps, river is an ace, which he goes even more nuts for. After about 15 seconds of celebration, I say "whats up man, first time having AA vs KK?"...he gets all offended "I mean...you coulda had a 6....and thats a huge pot! You would just snap call with AA? Really?"...."I mean listen man, nice hand, I don't think you gotta be afraid of me having a 6 there, but I could do without the 20 seconds of ongoing celebration since we are right next to each other. But I'm glad that your having such a good time."

    Later he apologized, I was kicking myself because I wanted to leave when I was up $500, then again at $300, then again at $165....but I wasn't really losing my composure, I felt I was making good bets and folds, and even started playing really premium hands when it felt like they weren't folding to my $20-25 raises anymore, but it was just trips, trips, 2 pair on 4 straight board, flush vs TP, and then AA vs KK to cap me off (I shoved my last $65 with 99 pre and got snapped off by JJ).
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
    jfarrow13 wrote: »
    After having 2 sets and QQ on a really scare board in which I made a nice river call, I ran into trips twice, from the same dude, when I had overpairs. At least the second time I didn't pay him.

    Then lost a $650 pot against the buzzsaw, AA vs KK, even though I don't hate how I played it, the defining fact was that he didn't 4-bet it, so I felt he was more weighted to QQ than AA. To make matters worse, he celebrated the hand like he'd made the sickest call of his life.

    He opens $15, I 3-bet BU $40, folds back to him he calls.
    Pot $80
    Flop 6 4 2r
    He leads $75, I call
    Turn 6 he leads $100.
    Smaller sizing, I feel like it's probably AA-JJ. I don't think this guy would turn AK or AQ into a bluff. I he has about $220 left. I tank for a while, thinking about well, will QQ call it off? Obviously AA should snap it off. Since it's 50/50, I think that I am gonna pay him off on any river, and I think that QQ or JJ might be scared to bet again on the river, but may call off on the turn, I ship it. He tanks for like 30 seconds talking about "man....like you took so long to bet. Are you Hollywooding a 6?".....fuck....also WTF why would I ever have a 6 here in a 3-bet pot? He calls, I say "aces?" yup, I table KK, he leaps up and claps, river is an ace, which he goes even more nuts for. After about 15 seconds of celebration, I say "whats up man, first time having AA vs KK?"...he gets all offended "I mean...you coulda had a 6....and thats a huge pot! You would just snap call with AA? Really?"...."I mean listen man, nice hand, I don't think you gotta be afraid of me having a 6 there, but I could do without the 20 seconds of ongoing celebration since we are right next to each other. But I'm glad that your having such a good time."

    Later he apologized, I was kicking myself because I wanted to leave when I was up $500, then again at $300, then again at $165....but I wasn't really losing my composure, I felt I was making good bets and folds, and even started playing really premium hands when it felt like they weren't folding to my $20-25 raises anymore, but it was just trips, trips, 2 pair on 4 straight board, flush vs TP, and then AA vs KK to cap me off (I shoved my last $65 with 99 pre and got snapped off by JJ).

    Little annoying when they over celebrate, people seem to want me to celebrate when I win a big pot, but I just quietly stack the chips. Part of being a pro is allowing them and encouraging them to have a good time. Gotta have a strong mental game.

    One hand I saw Garrett Aldelstein get all in for a $50k pot on the turn he had Ah3h on a 5h 2s 7h 4c board vs 77, river paired the board and he simply said nice hand. Didn't bother him, it didn't let it show one bit that he was 80% to win on the turn. It's a bit of a cooler for the other player, but wants him to think he was ahead the whole way.
  • jfarrow13jfarrow13 Red Chipper Posts: 1,245 ✭✭✭✭
    I'm far from a pro, but I don't really celebrate much. TBH I think I may have to start implementing a "up X amount rule cash out". I've only played once this month (Sunday), and I think booking a win for me woulda done me a lot of good. I normally don't stress about the money, and I didn't Sunday, but I'm just taking L after L, and while I'm still up on the year, the cash envolpe is now officially empty, as is my enthusiam for poker. I'm approaching the 3k down slide, and I dunno...I really don't wanna go into the red on the year (still up like 1.7k). I'm finding myself less and less inclined to play poker, which obviously the whole "it's good to be rolled" thing comes into play, but if your not having fun, and your not winning money....I just wanted to be a pretty good $1/3 / $2/5 player who made between $20-40 an hour and had fun. I don't seem to be doing either of those. Maybe I'll try again in July.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 1,846 ✭✭✭✭
    @jfarrow13 : looks like time to take a poker break and refresh your energy :)
  • jfarrow13jfarrow13 Red Chipper Posts: 1,245 ✭✭✭✭
    I took a break all of June. It started out me missed it the first two weeks, then me not even missing it at all. I was doing some shopping in the vicitiny of the casino and thought "oh, Sunday's have always been my best day, I'll just pop in."
    First hand, pocket 4's, flop a set, stack AQ. "ITS ALL COMING BACK TO ME"
    QQ for a big $350 pot but I had to make a tough river call.
    Then another set, with 10's, only $50 pot.
    Up $500 in less than 40 minutes.
    To be fair, I did raise 8/10 of my first hands, so people thought I was just way out of line. I probably could have limited some of my smaller losses by narrowing my opening range, but it wouldn't have prevented the major $100+ chunk hands that I lost with, or the KK vs AA hand.
    Enter overpairs vs trips twice.
    K5 hand I post (probably a waste, but I'd probably have to fold AK too, I folded the K5).
    Then KK --> AA. My last $70 went 99 vs JJ.
    See ya sometime in July MGM.
2

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