KK vs snowie + line check

AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,140 ✭✭✭✭✭
I am posting this hand because it's something I do in real life from time to time that may look bluffy, but it's a polarizing merged range when I feel villain is capped.

Blinds $2/$4 (9 handed)

Hero ($525) LJ :KH: :KD: opens $9
SB ($507) raises to $31
Hero calls $22 more.

Flop ($66) :JH: :8S: :9D:
SB checks
Hero bets $33
SB calls
Turn ($132) :JH: :8S: :9D: :5D:
SB checks
Hero bets $132
SB calls
River ($396) :JH: :8S: :9D: :5D: :6H:
SB checks
Hero all in $329
SB ?

I think KdQd, TT, J10s, T9s, AJs, QQ, etc all in villain's range and maybe I get looked up light since I flatted the 3bet and now I can possibly have K10s, TT, J10s etc myself. The only 7 would be 76s.


Comments

  • Adam WheelerAdam Wheeler Red Chipper Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭✭
    What are you bluffs here ?
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,140 ✭✭✭✭✭
    What are you bluffs here ?

    Matter of turning hands with showdown value into bluffs. Only pure bluff is KQs.

    Only error I had was on sizing this hand. Idk how someone disagrees with how I played it. It's not a leak, just a matter of correct sizing.
  • Wiki_LeaksWiki_Leaks Red Chipper Posts: 546 ✭✭✭
    Not sure im in love with turn sizing, really doesnt allow for setting up the poled river bet. To me it looks super value heavy on turn.

    And no 4bet pre? LJ vs sb 3bet seems like a good spot to 4bet
  • Adam WheelerAdam Wheeler Red Chipper Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 13
    First, this is a board where we can expect the OOP to checks a lot on. He is checking with the nuts and close to the nuts hands. Keep in mind he has very strong hands in his range here. Given this, you should reduce your stabbing frequency when checked to. Stabbing with KK here on flop is probably ok, my guess is that it is a low frequency play and will greatly depend on the level of your opponent.
    Given the PFR x/called, we can certainly expect him to carry over the nuts obviously but also a very strong range. Taking this into consideration + the fact that KK now with this turn will rarely improve on the rive i guess we could check back here. A hand like QQ would be better to PSB then KK for this reason.

    So when he check call again on turn he can have a plethora of 2P and sets that won't fold and when he calls with those he certainly won't fold to the river bet, so i think checking back KK river is the play given your line and sizing.

    Also as @Wiki_Leaks mentionned, we could make a case for a 4B with KK here unless you think you have a really big edge going post IP versus your opponent. If he don't put more money preflop badly when you 4B him then calling is the best play.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 1,425 ✭✭✭✭
    Austin wrote: »
    ..., but it's a polarizing merged range

    Am I the only one finding this making no sense ?
  • Adam WheelerAdam Wheeler Red Chipper Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 13
    Red wrote: »
    Austin wrote: »
    ..., but it's a polarizing merged range

    Am I the only one finding this making no sense ?

    My guess is that he wants to say that the bet looks like a polarizing bet where he won't be constructed poled but merged when he do bet in this spot with this board.
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,140 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Can someone explain the disagrees @Red & @kenaces

    I'll break it down street by street and what Snowie thinks the best play is.

    Preflop
    half pot open EV 3.87
    PSB 4.12
    facing a 3 bet of $31
    Calling EV = 10.70
    raising EV = 10.70
    *here I decided to call since SB range should be pretty polarizing with a few suited aces that will fold to a 4 bet.
    Flop ($66) :JH: :8S: :9D:
    SB checks
    Hero bets $33

    On the flop Snowie has us betting half pot about 90% of the time and checking 10% of the time. EV of both is 10.87
    Turn ($132) :JH: :8S: :9D: :5D:
    SB checks
    Hero bets $132
    SB calls

    Turn Snowie has 18% frequency of betting KK for half pot with an EV of 20.44 and checking 82% of the time.
    Comparing this to a live game I don't think I should be checking here very often as they are calling down really light. I do think betting 50-66% is better sizing though.

    On the turn the only hand Snowie is potting is KdQd. It has JJ as a 2x pot. KdQd and QQ can also be half potted. Hands like KK and AJ become check backs for the most part.
    River ($396) :JH: :8S: :9D: :5D: :6H:
    SB checks
    Hero all in $329
    SB ?

    On the river Snowie has checking 100% of the time, but betting as follows:

    25% pot EV 20.40
    50% pot EV 30.48
    .79% pot (ALL IN) 36.37
    Checking 36.88

  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 1,425 ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 13
    Austin wrote: »
    Can someone explain the disagrees @Red & @kenaces

    I pointed out that betting with a merged range makes sense, betting with a polarizing range makes sens... but what means a "polarizing merged range" ?!?
    Austin wrote: »
    Flop ($66) :JH: :8S: :9D:
    SB checks
    Hero bets $33

    On the flop Snowie has us betting half pot about 90% of the time and checking 10% of the time. EV of both is 10.87
    So far nothing special.
    I'd but use a bigger sizing if Villain is inelastic, especially if he tends to pay to much for draws or "looks like best hand" (here TPTK kind of hands).
    Austin wrote: »
    Turn ($132) :JH: :8S: :9D: :5D:
    SB checks
    Hero bets $132
    SB calls

    Turn Snowie has 18% frequency of betting KK for half pot with an EV of 20.44 and checking 82% of the time.
    Comparing this to a live game I don't think I should be checking here very often as they are calling down really light. I do think betting 50-66% is better sizing though.

    On the turn the only hand Snowie is potting is KdQd. It has JJ as a 2x pot. KdQd and QQ can also be half potted. Hands like KK and AJ become check backs for the most part.
    After a very often c-bet, I'd rather check. Many worst will fold otherwise (against the obvious AA or JJ), and it's hard to deny any equity from any strong holding. Could be if sticky (aka non c-bet bluff believer but not a station) and/or inelastic.

    I'm on board potting KdQd - but I'd also use AdQd. Yes KQ has nut straight draw, but I don't expect KQ to call that line, so I don't fear to be outdrawn when T comes.

    I don't like 2x pot with JJ. I think only 99 can find a (crying) call, or 88/98 if Villain is loose and rather sticky. But I think it's rather an exploitative bet against sticky and rather inelastic Villain AND targeting the top of their range.
    Personally I don't like it. Too strong - and I prefer to use the same sizing with KdQd and JJ.
    Austin wrote: »
    River ($396) :JH: :8S: :9D: :5D: :6H:
    SB checks
    Hero all in $329
    SB ?

    On the river Snowie has checking 100% of the time, but betting as follows:

    25% pot EV 20.40
    50% pot EV 30.48
    .79% pot (ALL IN) 36.37
    Checking 36.88

    Hard to say, really Villain dependent... and depends on your line too. If you c-bet flop and check turn, then you could use a polarized shove, especially if Villain doesn't like playing for stacks.
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,140 ✭✭✭✭✭
    @Red With the number of suited aces snowie has in the SB here that 3 bet preflop then takes a check call line, I figured Snowie's range is kinda capped here with a lot of 1 pair hands. My bet sizing will look like I have hands like sets and straights on the river, but since Snowie likely only has 1 pair, I can turn my big pairs into max value by shoving all in. On the river im betting 79% pot all in, which is a bit polarizing imo. Had I gone half pot on the turn the river would by a lot more polarizing.

    Usually PSB would be a nutted hand or a bluff right? Over pairs on a four line board don't really fit into a polarizing scenario which is why the recommended advice is to check back here quite often to bet small like 25% pot to get called by a 1 pair hand. Trying to maximize my value when I think Snowie is capped, even though the check calling range is supposed to be balanced in this spot.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 1,425 ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 13
    Austin wrote: »
    Usually PSB would be a nutted hand or a bluff right? Over pairs on a four line board don't really fit into a polarizing scenario which is why the recommended advice is to check back here quite often to bet small like 25% pot to get called by a 1 pair hand. Trying to maximize my value when I think Snowie is capped, even though the check calling range is supposed to be balanced in this spot.

    But 4 line board giving a straight only with 7X combos. How many 7X combos does SB have here ? None I think - except a loose sticky 77 (very meh call on flop against QX and overpairs+).

    SB didn't c-bet nor c-r flop after his preflop 3bet. So if he is not trapping, his range shall not have sets.
    Same about made straights (QTs).
    Unsure he 3bet with anything to have 2P here.
    Out of the blue (aka without info about SB betting pattern) I expect a OOP 3bettor to c-bet if he hits.
    So, - and it's my personal assumption - I think SB is so strongly capped that I may use overpairs in a pot bet.

    Personally, except if I've other info about V, I'd more use an underbet more than a pot/overbet, trying to scratch value or price his curiosity in.
  • Adam WheelerAdam Wheeler Red Chipper Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭✭
    I have hard times believing the 90% bet frequency with a 1/2 pot bet on the flop. What are the ranges you input?
  • Adam WheelerAdam Wheeler Red Chipper Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 13
    Red wrote: »

    So, - and it's my personal assumption - I think SB is so strongly capped that I may use overpairs in a pot bet.

    This is not logical mostly because you'll never get called with your nuts hands* and since ranges are already narrow because of the pre flop action(3B) the best play for Hero is betting smaller and wider on river.

    When your range is so strong vs a capped range that even when you scratch to the very bottom to find bluffs and you can't, the optimal play for Villain is folding all his range to any size bet.
  • kenaceskenaces Red Chipper Posts: 1,204 ✭✭✭✭
    I have hard times believing the 90% bet frequency with a 1/2 pot bet on the flop. What are the ranges you input?

    I think what he ment was that snowie bets KK 90% of the time?
  • Adam WheelerAdam Wheeler Red Chipper Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 13
    kenaces wrote: »
    I have hard times believing the 90% bet frequency with a 1/2 pot bet on the flop. What are the ranges you input?

    I think what he ment was that snowie bets KK 90% of the time?

    Ha ! Make more sense, thanks.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 1,425 ✭✭✭✭
    Red wrote: »

    So, - and it's my personal assumption - I think SB is so strongly capped that I may use overpairs in a pot bet.

    This is not logical mostly because you'll never get called with your nuts hands* and since ranges are already narrow because of the pre flop action(3B) the best play for Hero is betting smaller and wider on river.

    When your range is so strong vs a capped range that even when you scratch to the very bottom to find bluffs and you can't, the optimal play for Villain is folding all his range to any size bet.

    In (my) live games I've been called with a lot of weird bad hands with underbets.
    On such board, stab ~55% pbs, check turn and underbet river, i expect A high (AK, maybe AQ from some bad Villain) calling here.
  • Adam WheelerAdam Wheeler Red Chipper Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭✭
    What do you mean underbet? I'm talking about you stating that;
    "So, - and it's my personal assumption - I think SB is so strongly capped that I may use overpairs in a pot bet."

    Where you say you would pot with overpairs.
  • TravisTravis Red Chipper Posts: 428 ✭✭✭
    I like Snowies recommendation on this hand live as well 1/2, 1/2, check. Once V calls turn I have a good not great hand with showdown value. No reason to turn this into a bluff. I rarely am called by worse!
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 1,425 ✭✭✭✭
    @Adam Wheeler
    What I meant was IF I was to overbet/bet pot (aka with a polarized range), I could understand to use overpairs. But I think an underbet (~1/3 pot bet) is better with such holdings.

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