Live MTT Call/Shove?!

Lachlan versluisLachlan versluis Red Chipper Posts: 14 ✭✭
edited June 22 in Live Poker Hands
Blinds 1k/2k - Hero 47k stack

UTG shoves 12k
Fold to MP2 shoves 25k
Fold to Hero on SB :Ts :Td
Hero tanks for a minute then calls
BB tanks then calls - 15k behind

:Ad :4c :Jh

BB shoves 15k

First of all, fairly sure I should've shoved the 10's PF but BB is a nit and I honestly had him folding 95%. The thought process and I was wanting clarification on whether this is flawed, was that if an A came on the flop I could get away from it and still have 15 BB, especially if the BB called. In hindsight I should've applied maximum pressure to his range especially considering the great price he's getting at that point. UTG had K10o MP2 had K9o BB ended up having AQ which I don't think calls the 47k PF but I might be wrong.
Just wanting to check that it is indeed flawed logic and shoving PF was the right decision.

Thanks for your thoughts in advance!

Comments

  • Wiki_LeaksWiki_Leaks Red Chipper Posts: 546 ✭✭✭
    Wothout any villain description I probably fold here. Its a call vs just one shove, but mp shove just can't be light here often enough to justify an overcall imo. Since you didnt ID either villain as crazy, I think you happened to find a rather absurd best case scenario equity wise.

    I think calling is your worst option.

  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,486 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Preflop is likely a fold vs UTG shove 6bb and mp reshove 12bb. If MP flatted I am more likely to shove. If MP folded im more likely to shove. I'm never really flatting half my stack preflop unless I have AA.
  • kageykagey Red Chipper, KINGOFTAGS Posts: 2,206 ✭✭✭✭✭
    shoving or folding should be the correct line of thought
    but after TWO players shove... we're got to flop perfect to win the hand (esp. since we're going to have to see the river)
    calling here gives BB the right price to call with a large range of hands

    as a 23bb stack - you've got to preserve your fold equity for when you need it.
    I'd fold here as well.
    It's seems crazy to think that you're going to be up agains 55 and 99 or 56 and 98s here. EP players aren't typically shoving that lite.

    I'd fold here as well.
    but if you're going to be stubborn and want to play it - you should reshove to push the BB out.
  • Lachlan versluisLachlan versluis Red Chipper Posts: 14 ✭✭
    edited June 24
    Will mention this was a live MTT, blind's increase every 15minutes and we had 2 minutes left of 1k/2k. Things tend to get a bit crazy around then. UTG is a reg i play with a lot and I knew was light, tbh I really wanted to fold on the reshove though. He was very fishy and I thought he was nitty so was very surprised to see K10. BB is a nit too so I'd only had him continuing on QQ+ maybe AK, (evidently AQo makes the cut). It's a fold even if I'm in the BB right? Either way I understand where everyone's coming from and appreciate the input.
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,486 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 25
    Been thinking more about this hand. If UTG at 6bb is shoving around 30% of hands and MP2 is isolating top 11% of hands than hero is 40% to win. Hero would be risking 12bb to win 19.5bb. Also the most important part I think is Hero is only risking half his stack. Of course Hero would be shoving. Before I was leaning towards a fold preflop, now im leaning more towards a shove.

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  • kageykagey Red Chipper, KINGOFTAGS Posts: 2,206 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Austin wrote: »
    Been thinking more about this hand. If UTG at 6bb is shoving around 30% of hands and MP2 is isolating top 11% of hands than hero is 40% to win.

    this is where your logic goes off the rails.

    a 6BB shove is NEVER shoving 30% of hands from utg.
    Nash is having us shoving 18.7% - and unless this player just lost two hands in a row by bad beats and he's saying fuck it! - his shoving range is usually tighter.
    Think about this: He's let himself get down to SIX BBs... he could have shoved 30%-wide a number of times when he was deeper.
    Unless he's fed up of waiting for hands after being card dead for most of the tourney, he's not shoving very wide. He's shoving for his tournament life knowing that he's so short, he's at least getting called by one player.

    Since this should be somewhat common knowledge in a tourney, MP's reshove would probably be hands that perform well agains this range. (again, without knowing the meta of the game or a more descriptive player profile, he should be tighter)
    Again Nash has us calling or reshoving with 6% of hands. But typically in live tourneys, MP should be tighter... depending on what the table thinks UTG is shoving with....

    as played, UTG's shoving ranges was in line with Nash. MP2 made a horrible reshove.
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,486 ✭✭✭✭✭
    @kagey

    Blinds 1k\2k and go up in two minutes. Maybe I shove 6bb too wide in this spot, but by the time the blinds pass us, we will be left with around 3bb next orbit if we don't pick up a hand. 30% seems pretty reasonable to me because waiting for a hand takes away any FE you have.

    http://www.pushfoldcharts.com/fullring/#bb6

    I can see that Nash wants to wait for a better spot. I wonder if it changes based on blinds going up? Maybe only up to 20% in account for the blinds.... Guess I need to tighten my push fold and improve my calling range.
  • kageykagey Red Chipper, KINGOFTAGS Posts: 2,206 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Austin wrote: »
    Blinds 1k\2k and go up in two minutes.

    when you play turbos where the blind go up very fast - you need to take this into consideration and look to push/fold at 20bbs.

    30% from UTG is just too wide on a short stack.
    I prefer to range my opponents tighter than they are - so when I reshove, I'm well within tolerances and will have more equity than expected.

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