Would you: Call, Raise or Shove this Turn?

Jeffrey OJeffrey O Red Chipper Posts: 23 ✭✭
edited July 5 in Tournament Poker Hands
$175 : $25k GTD MTT in South FL

Prize pool above $40k, 17 players remain
Single Ante
15k Ante 15K/10k
V-SB (500k+) TAG / Hero-BB (400k)

Folds around to V, raise to 40k
Hero calls :Ac :Tc

Flop: :Qc :8s :Jc
V-bets - 60k; Hero Calls

Turn: :Kh
V-bets - 60k; Hero Raise 135k; V calls

River: :Qs
Board: :Qc :8s :Jc :Kh :Qs

V-check; Hero check
V-Jacks full

Does anyone just call the turn bet or does anyone shove 285k into a 155k pot



Comments

  • MnpokerMnpoker Red Chipper Posts: 48 ✭✭
    I don't mind your line at all. you got coolered. It happens
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 4,777 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Hero calls :Ac :Tc

    Flop(80k): :Qc :8s :Jc
    V-bets - 60k; Hero Calls

    Turn (200k): :Kh
    V-bets - 60k; Hero Raise 135k; V calls

    River(470k) : :Qs
    Board: :Qc :8s :Jc :Kh :Qs

    V-check; Hero (165k effective) check

    Preflop one could argue for a 3bet. Flop play I like your flat call. Turn I like the small raise. River ...how do you not shove? This is a BvB battle. Ranges are so wide there are so many hands that can call you.

    Nice check back, but long run missing a lot of value I think.
  • Sp ShugyoshaSp Shugyosha Red Chipper Posts: 19 ✭✭
    One question : why Hero doesn´t raise the flop bet?
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 4,777 ✭✭✭✭✭
    One question : why Hero doesn´t raise the flop bet?

    When hero calls the SB open, then raises the flop, what is hero repping?
  • kageykagey Red Chipper, KINGOFTAGS Posts: 2,200 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Jeffrey O wrote: »
    Does anyone just call the turn bet or does anyone shove 285k into a 155k pot

    I think your math is off...
    V makes it 40 pre and we call. pot 80k
    on flop, he bets 60, we call. pot now 200k
    on turn - he bets 60... pot now 260k
    we have 300k behind....

    but to answer your question... it depends on who the SB is and how tight he plays.
    his range includes a lot of sets,two pairs and big aces (AK, AQ)
    if we didn't have the nut flush - I could see shoving for value and protection
    but with our hand, raising small is fine.
    it allows him to continue with a lot of worse hands including :KC: :XC:

    it also depends on whether or not you're in the money.
    but most players with a set would call a shove... so you just got coolered.
    happens
  • Christian SotoChristian Soto RCP Coach Posts: 2,101 ✭✭✭✭
    I mean we start the hand with 400K @ 15KBB. (26.5BB)

    V opens SB into our BB for 40K - there is definitely a very strong argument for us being allin right now...

    But We just call and Flop is Q J 8cc and V now fires 4BBs.

    The pot now containts ~10BBs. With us having around ~23BBs back.

    With a shove - the pot would contain ~14BB and we would be shoving for around ~19BBs more. So about 1.3x pot.

    IMO We desperately need to be allin now. We are pushing enough equity versus his range and winning this pot now would be perfectly fine.

    If Turn comes 2s and V fire 8BBs - this gets awkward really fast.
  • kageykagey Red Chipper, KINGOFTAGS Posts: 2,200 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I mean we start the hand with 400K @ 15KBB. (26.5BB)
    I think OP mean to say blinds were 5k/10k
    we've got 40bbs
  • Christian SotoChristian Soto RCP Coach Posts: 2,101 ✭✭✭✭
    kagey wrote: »
    I mean we start the hand with 400K @ 15KBB. (26.5BB)
    I think OP mean to say blinds were 5k/10k
    we've got 40bbs

    Ah OK. That changes everything
  • Christian SotoChristian Soto RCP Coach Posts: 2,101 ✭✭✭✭
    OK assuming we have 40BBs now:

    I think the preflop call is fine and we should be 3Bing pretty poled in this formation in general as most of our defends will be through a call.

    Flop comes down and the number one question is: Do you think he Over Cbetting this board or not? Frankly, he should be checking this board at a decent frequency. In a $175 live MTT I’m just going to assume he is making mistakes.

    So If you think he is over cbetting then raising Flop for about 14BBss and following that up by being allin on Many Turns is a good option.

    If you think your opponent is well constructed and betting a poled range on Flop then flatting becomes superior.

    However once you face a double barrel from a poled range, and we have the blades, I think we should respond with a big raise (much larger than what you chose.
  • Jeffrey OJeffrey O Red Chipper Posts: 23 ✭✭
    kagey wrote: »
    I mean we start the hand with 400K @ 15KBB. (26.5BB)
    I think OP mean to say blinds were 5k/10k
    we've got 40bbs

    Ah OK. That changes everything

    Math isn't off - its single ante structure. I'm in for the 15k ante and the 15k blind before cards are dealt
  • Jeffrey OJeffrey O Red Chipper Posts: 23 ✭✭
    I mean we start the hand with 400K @ 15KBB. (26.5BB)

    V opens SB into our BB for 40K - there is definitely a very strong argument for us being allin right now...

    But We just call and Flop is Q J 8cc and V now fires 4BBs.

    The pot now containts ~10BBs. With us having around ~23BBs back.

    With a shove - the pot would contain ~14BB and we would be shoving for around ~19BBs more. So about 1.3x pot.

    IMO We desperately need to be allin now. We are pushing enough equity versus his range and winning this pot now would be perfectly fine.

    If Turn comes 2s and V fire 8BBs - this gets awkward really fast.

    Thanks for responding everyone.

    Most of my table was short stacked and well under the 370k chip average, honesty I was trying to be cautious going to battle with the only person who had me covered.

    V was playing super tough, really tight, mainly in position and always aggressive post flop. I considered 3-betting pre but I really didn't want to pay for stacks if he 4-bets allin. I also considered a raise on the flop but again I did't want to be on a draw for my tourney life.

    Is that the leak here, not playing aggressive enough late in an event?? I play alot of MTT's so I'm def open to hearing more about this if anyone wants to comment

    After the Kh on the turn, physically the way he bet the 60k looked sheepish. I didn't want to blow him off the hand.. From what I'm reading this is wrong. I should have shoved flop to ensure both cards if he calls or scoop the pot if he folds?
  • Sp ShugyoshaSp Shugyosha Red Chipper Posts: 19 ✭✭
    Austin wrote: »
    One question : why Hero doesn´t raise the flop bet?

    When hero calls the SB open, then raises the flop, what is hero repping?

    That´s a good question indeed , not QJ or AQ for sure

    My line of thinking was : we dont know how wide SB is opening or his post flop tendencies , so i thought we can semi bluff : perhaps :

    He will fold any 8x or some Ax he decided to bet.

    If he calls we won initiative and still have plenty of outs ,

    But if we just call and some brick appears OTT and villain bets...far more difficult to play this hand no?
  • Jeffrey OJeffrey O Red Chipper Posts: 23 ✭✭
    Austin wrote: »
    Hero calls :Ac :Tc

    Flop(80k): :Qc :8s :Jc
    V-bets - 60k; Hero Calls

    Turn (200k): :Kh
    V-bets - 60k; Hero Raise 135k; V calls

    River(470k) : :Qs
    Board: :Qc :8s :Jc :Kh :Qs

    V-check; Hero (165k effective) check

    Preflop one could argue for a 3bet. Flop play I like your flat call. Turn I like the small raise. River ...how do you not shove? This is a BvB battle. Ranges are so wide there are so many hands that can call you.

    Nice check back, but long run missing a lot of value I think.

    Thanks- honestly, I'm not a hand reading savant by any means but the way it all transpired in real time, knew he was strong, i had him on JJ, QQ, maybe AA, KK or 88, I didn't think he had total air but I told myself if the board pairs I would call a river bet but not raise or shove.

    I think you're right, long term its a -EV play to check back. I guess my only question would be if I bet or shove what hands are going to call me? I can only beat 2 pair here, would a :Kc :Xc call? wouldn't he have to put me only on :Ac :Xc that missed.
  • Christian SotoChristian Soto RCP Coach Posts: 2,101 ✭✭✭✭
    OK so assuming we have ~26BB now and the math was correct orginally...

    Everyone arguing for a 3B - I assume it’s 3B allin. That’s really the only option when it comes to a 3B imo.

    I think that’s perfectly fine.

    @Jeffrey O I’d advise you to read your last response to me in a few days. IMO There is a lot of fear based approaches in your thought process.
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 4,777 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'm a little confused on the blinds.

    Its 10k sb?
    15k BB
    + 15k Bb single ante?
    Prize pool above $40k, 17 players remain
    Single Ante
    15k Ante 15K/10k
    V-SB (500k+) TAG / Hero-BB (400k)

    26bb or M of 13.

    Shove is +EV
    Sb openes 2.6bb which is pretty small BvB. Maybe that's his consistent siszing? Doesn't scream strength to me though.

    You mentioned you would call a bet on the river, but wouldn't shove or raise. With 1\3 psb left, you are likely facing all in vs any bet.

    I like your small turn sizing, but one could argue going for the throat vs a sticky opponent who will call with KJ, QJ, KQ, T9s, J8d, K8s, Q8s, just numerous 2 pairs, sets, and lower straight.

    Maybe in a tourney a shove is better and a cash game a small raise is better?
  • Jeffrey OJeffrey O Red Chipper Posts: 23 ✭✭
    Austin wrote: »
    I'm a little confused on the blinds.

    Its 10k sb?
    15k BB
    + 15k Bb single ante?
    Prize pool above $40k, 17 players remain
    Single Ante
    15k Ante 15K/10k
    V-SB (500k+) TAG / Hero-BB (400k)

    26bb or M of 13.

    Shove is +EV
    Sb openes 2.6bb which is pretty small BvB. Maybe that's his consistent siszing? Doesn't scream strength to me though.

    You mentioned you would call a bet on the river, but wouldn't shove or raise. With 1\3 psb left, you are likely facing all in vs any bet.

    I like your small turn sizing, but one could argue going for the throat vs a sticky opponent who will call with KJ, QJ, KQ, T9s, J8d, K8s, Q8s, just numerous 2 pairs, sets, and lower straight.

    Maybe in a tourney a shove is better and a cash game a small raise is better?

    On this particular lvl w/ the stack sizes 2.5 BB was my tables normal opening size. I know I didn't put a lot of context in my first post. I had been at the same table w/ V but had just been re-drawn and he now on my right for only a few orbits. He completed a I think 2 BvB and called a 3.5x raise w/ what I think was a weak A. So when he raised into it felt like he was stronger than normal

    I understand any river bet would likely be an allin for me. I would have called the it but if checked w/ the paired board I figured the only hands I'm getting a call from have me beat in this exact spot. I ran a bunch of different ranges on equilab and I do see there's more hands that I beat than what I lose to. Now that we've been talking about it I can see a 3B shove pre or shove on the flop being +EV in the long run

    I think maybe I was too focused on laddering up and making a final table so being afraid to play a big pot with the other large stack at my table caused me to take a passive fearful line. Maybe if I 3B all pre or shove on the flop I generate more fold equity. At least it looks more profitable long term

    I think knowing the outcome of any allin bet here has me losing, so its been the difficult part for me when looking at the different lines available on this hand

    appreciate the feedback

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