Ed Miller's Streets of Value

Daniel HorsleyDaniel Horsley Red Chipper Posts: 47 ✭✭
Hi guys,

So reading the comments on Ed Miller's 'Streets of Value' video in CORE.. I have to agree with most people that it was a eureka moment for me.. I always always bet with strong made hands such as sets, two pairs and often TPTK thinking "I need to bet 2/3 to full pot here so that I don't get drawed out on". But as Ed says, this should not be the case, as I need to instead be focusing on weaker (non-drawing) hands such as second pairs, TPGK etc..

It did cross my mind however that if, when facing bets with drawing hands, we want to get the best odds possible, then why on earth wouldn't we flip that on its head and give our opponents the worse odds possible? I found the answer to this in the comments when @SplitSuit said "2. Are you really offering them maximum implied odds the times they do improve?". The good thing about facing aggression from fishier players is that they will continue aggression when our draws fill up.. on the other hand, we can apply our knowledge and experience to avoid giving them their implied odds by either pot controlling or folding when the draws do fill up.

I also read Jared Tendler's "Mental Game of Poker" and it did become apparent to me that I was being very risk adverse, particularly when facing potential draws. Im excited now to start working on this leak and worrying less about draws and more about extracting value from my opponents.

Comments

  • GrampsGramps Greenville, SC / Cherokee, NCRed Chipper Posts: 3 ✭✭
    I agree with Daniel that this was the best video of the course so far, and i am excited to start getting more value with top pair. Ed Miller is my favorite coach, but i must say, Ed: One of the big reasons why i've spent so many hands blowing opponents out of pots, is because of your book with Sklansky on NLHE Theory and Practice. My take away from that book was, we have to calculate a big enough bet that the big draws don't have enough implied odds to draw profitably. This has been killing my Value for years, and I'm glad to hear of this new perspective. Is that book outdated, or did i just misunderstand it?
  • Michael WMichael W Red Chipper Posts: 135 ✭✭
    'bet enough so that your opponent doesnt get the odds to call with their draws' is 2006 poker
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 4,007 ✭✭✭✭✭
    There is little true in either of these last posts. NLHTP and its forerunner Theory of Poker contain stuff that never changed and can't, until the rules or the deck used change.

    All we do is find ever more precise ways of doing it. Or we rediscover what was already pointed out, as Janda did in his recent book, restating the value of claiming the pot as if it were a revelation, when Sklansky had already pointed it out long ago, in what is apparently just poker scripture for 1/3 players to laugh at now.

    In NLHTP, the math of expectation is explained, and under the example assumption, you are incentivized to bet large to charge implied odds hands because the given assumption is that you are not folding on the runout and your value is on that street. Obviously, if your entire stack is not in play and you are exercising a depolarized betting strategy on a particular street the incentive to charge more is lessened. There are only so many examples an author can give - eventually you have to apply yourself.

    As for betting larger on wet flops, that's straight out of the Upswing now - are they trapped in 2006, too?
  • Michael WMichael W Red Chipper Posts: 135 ✭✭
    what i wanted to say: back in 2006 - afair - it was a mantra to always bet big when there are many draws, e.g. betting big from utg w AA on 985ss ALWAYS. checking here was considered a noob error
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 4,007 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2018
    Fair enough. However, I quickly went through the entire book brought up here, NLHETP, and found no such advice. On the other hand, you'll see in this forum all sorts of bad ideas, right here in 2018, just as you'll see atrociously bad play in films and online hhs from 2006. What that suggests to me is that folklore guides decisions more than the best books ever did, or perhaps that we should burn a few readers for every book we advise burning here at RCP. A fast read of NLHETP this evening yielded many useful ideas, all rooted in math and/or strategy, the indispensable languages of the game.
  • Fernando TFernando T Red Chipper Posts: 90 ✭✭
    As I recalled the book in fact gave this advice/rule
  • RomuffelRomuffel Red Chipper Posts: 10 ✭✭
    Ed mIller is the best coach and I support Daniel's notion 100 percent
  • RomuffelRomuffel Red Chipper Posts: 10 ✭✭
    Michael W wrote: »
    'bet enough so that your opponent doesnt get the odds to call with their draws' is 2006 poker

    Haha! One of the oldest tricks in the book
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 4,007 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2018
    v3j51p6j3026.png

    This is the idea in question, in "Concept 40." Read carefully.

    There is no statement that one must bet or always bet. What is published is a statement of what should happen when one does bet. It is the statement, in other words, of a logical condition, not an imperative.

    Also note the word should, which is not a synonym for must. This correlates with the following asserted theme of the book:

    38pgr89qmpw8.png
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 4,007 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Romuffel wrote: »
    Ed mIller is the best coach and I support Daniel's notion 100 percent

    Well, you're in for some news.
  • Jordan PowerJordan Power Red Chipper Posts: 429 ✭✭✭
    persuadeo wrote: »
    What that suggests to me is that folklore guides decisions more than the best books ever did, or perhaps that we should burn a few readers for every book we advise burning here at RCP.

    Persuadeo channeling his inner Guy Montag here. It was a pleasure to burn...
  • persuadeopersuadeo Red Chipper, Table Captain Posts: 4,007 ✭✭✭✭✭

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