Cbet Question

RFBCompRFBComp Red Chipper Posts: 4 ✭✭
edited July 2018 in New To Poker Questions
I have been going through the core lessons and just got into the bet sizing lesson. The chart says that Cbet into a SRP should be about 66%. I was just watching the day 2c of the main event and Antonio was talking about how the new way of thought is to Cbet around 20-30% these days and how it used to be 50-60%. Are the lessons in core outdated already? Just wondering what the thought process is behind it and why are people doing 20-30% now?
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  • RFBCompRFBComp Red Chipper Posts: 4 ✭✭
    edited July 2018
    Thank you @PBF_Prodigy. What training software or site would you recommend to learn the latest and greatest? I don’t want to waist time learning obsolete material.
  • keasbeykeasbey Red Chipper Posts: 91 ✭✭
    @PBF_Prodigy you make it seem like you cant be a decent winning player at live $1/2 or 2/5 unless you are playing pure GTO style with hours and thousands invested in learning.. dont you think that the redchip content is still good for a lot of the mongoloid 1/2 2/5 games out there?
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Las VegasPosts: 5,056 -
    keasbey wrote: »
    @PBF_Prodigy you make it seem like you cant be a decent winning player at live $1/2 or 2/5 unless you are playing pure GTO style with hours and thousands invested in learning.. dont you think that the redchip content is still good for a lot of the mongoloid 1/2 2/5 games out there?

    In the same way that poker players tend to view the game (and the world) through the lens of risk-reward, I think poker training and learning needs to be viewed through the lens of time and money investment. Clearly the more effort you put in the higher the likelihood you'll get very good at poker, and in the context of modern training options some high-end learning is going to cost a lot.

    In defense of Red Chip content... like everything else in poker it is evolving. Our PRO videos have an increasingly large amount of GTO content that explicitly uses solvers like Pio and CREV and that is transferring through to CORE. In fact the majority of the PRO videos on NLHE I have scheduled through the end of August are either explicitly GTO or use some aspect of a GTO as a baseline from which to deviate.

    To carry PBF_Prodigy's analogy one step further, everybody might have liked to have been like Mike, but even setting aside physical limitations, most people would never put in that sort of work, nor would they want to pay the huge financial premium for his coaching.

    So my answer to @keasbey is that yes you can beat $1/2 and $2/5 based on the CORE (and PRO) training material, but I won't argue with PBF that you'd do even better spending more time and money on more advanced training. The question is do you, at this stage, want to commit that additional time and money. Many people like getting better $5/week at a time.
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  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Las VegasPosts: 5,056 -
    Yes, a lot of the theory that RCP advocates is outdated / subpar compared to poker theory produced after computer-assisted analysis became widely available (~2016). At the mid- to high-stakes online, where 3bb/100 winrates are considered solid, you'll be hard pressed to find players who aren't using the 20-30% approach.


    I assume you have access to it?
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  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Las VegasPosts: 5,056 -
    edited July 2018
    Okay, fair if leading questions.

    Most of the GTO content in our PRO library that has come out recently or that will be coming out soon is by Adam Jones, Gareth James, Andrew Brokos and Brad Lampman. I can think of multiple reasons why they might not want to publish their results, and I don't intend to ask them to do so.

    On this issue you ask "If we can't, what is the incentive of the GTO pro content at $50/mo versus Rio's $100 a month/mo where you can learn from sauce, a multi millionaire winner and the best poker producer in the world?"

    Well... Traditionally we have chosen our content providers on the basis of their coaching reputations. I'm not sure what academic discipline you came from, but in astrophysics it was often the case that the professors with research medals couldn't teach their way out of a paper bag. It's possible that Ben Sulsky is both a great player and teacher. The videos of his I've watched I've liked, but I personally find the concepts difficult to organize and apply. Likely this reflects my limitations and not his.

    Anyway, I think the question here is: "Does RCP PRO+CORE at $50/month provide more value than whatever you get for $100/month at RIO?" For you the answer is a loud and clear "no." My assertion is that for many less advanced players the answer is yes, OR the value of CORE at $5/week is more-suited to their needs. Presumably RIO content isn't all GTO? Does Jen Shahade still make content?

    When you claim that there's more value in $600 in coaching+solver than a year of PRO+CORE, doesn't that depend the stage at which the student is at? Besides, how many hours of coaching do you get from a good coach for $500? 2?

    And if a critical part of current poker self-learning is for the student to buy and explore the game with a solver, well... we have PRO videos that help them do just that!

    It's certainly possible for a dedicated student of poker to outgrow RCP, and honestly nothing could make us happier. Whenever that happens that's a success story for our product.
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  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Las VegasPosts: 5,056 -
    I completely agree that to teach anything well you need to have mastered your subject to a certain level, and in poker one obvious metric is being a proven winner at stakes above those your students are aiming to beat. But, as in other disciplines, simply being good at poker does not make someone a good teacher.

    If you ever come across content you think is inaccurate I encourage you to point out why.
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  • SullySully Red Chipper Posts: 780 ✭✭✭
    No. I think for the majority of people will learn some bad habits that are very costly against stronger $2/5 opponents / leaves too much money on the table.

    Also, don't study from people who are "good enough." No one wanted to learn to play from Dennis Rodman, they wanted to be like Mike!

    Not if you want to become an undersized, tenacious rebounder who is feared on the boards
    Mike can't do it alone
    One skill probably doesn't cut it poker (even the awesomeness of GTO)

    What's holding you back from being a regular at the next level?

  • kenaceskenaces Red Chipper Posts: 1,589 ✭✭✭✭
    I think most people burn a ton of money paying mediocre players for bad advice.

    This has been true for a long time and still is true. It just might be a little more clear who is who with today's software.
  • kenaceskenaces Red Chipper Posts: 1,589 ✭✭✭✭
    RFBComp wrote: »
    Thank you @PBF_Prodigy. What training software or site would you recommend to learn the latest and greatest? I don’t want to waist time learning obsolete material.

    You can buy GTO+ for $75 as a place to start.
  • kenaceskenaces Red Chipper Posts: 1,589 ✭✭✭✭
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    Most of the GTO content in our PRO library that has come out recently or that will be coming out soon is by Adam Jones, Gareth James, Andrew Brokos and Brad Lampman. I can think of multiple reasons why they might not want to publish their results, and I don't intend to ask them to do so.

    It seems to me that any training site should make sure it's teaching pros have a solid history of results. This issue is pet peeve of mine. I have seen many examples of training sites continuing to let guys stay on as coaches even when they haven't make actual profits on the felt in years. I have seen this on CR/DC/STOX/RIO. Even if you are unwilling to publish results you should at the very minimum has a process in place to verify/review them internally.
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    Anyway, I think the question here is: "Does RCP PRO+CORE at $50/month provide more value than whatever you get for $100/month at RIO?" For you the answer is a loud and clear "no." My assertion is that for many less advanced players the answer is yes, OR the value of CORE at $5/week is more-suited to their needs. Presumably RIO content isn't all GTO? Does Jen Shahade still make content?

    I haven't seen "core" so I don't have an opinion but wanted to point our you can get the basic membership to RIO for $10/mo.

    I thought Shadade just make OFC content which I haven't watched as I don't play the game. Is there some issue with her?

    I doubt any site's content is 100% about GTO but I am not really watching that many videos these days so I can't say.

  • keasbeykeasbey Red Chipper Posts: 91 ✭✭
    So i got into poker around october 2017 because i wanted a new competitive hobby to fill the void left with the retirement from mma. after 10 years my body cant handle the stress anymore.

    before october i never played a hand live or online. in my day time i am both a patent attorney and a corporate insurance lawyer, so i have about 2-3 hours a day to spend learning and playing. using concepts from core ive made 50% ROI ($100) playing 20nl on global over 10,000 hands. whats that, 5bb/100? not a bad place for a total noob to start. at what point should a player like me transition to training gto like a pro? i just want to realize my fullest potential given my life constraints.

    also the more important question is how am i supposed to know who/whats worth my time and money?

    i chose red chip because splits videos on youtube were the most noob friendly which shows how good of a teacher he is.

    if you wanted to train mma it would take you 3 full years training 8 hours a day to get to where i am now after 10... and thats if you train with the gracies themselves.

    with poker its similiar.. i cant expect to compete against people with 15 years experience edge over me, so i just want to do the best i can with what i have to work with. core may be outdated for todays pro games but i think its still very relevant for getting new players into the game with success. question is when is the right time to try abd tackle the pro stlye and how to do it.
  • kenaceskenaces Red Chipper Posts: 1,589 ✭✭✭✭
    nothing matches the value of watching Ben Sulsky talk about poker.

    +1

    I believe he is the strongest player currently making NLH content, and he does a reasonably good job of explaining himself.

  • kenaceskenaces Red Chipper Posts: 1,589 ✭✭✭✭
    keasbey wrote: »
    with poker its similiar.. i cant expect to compete against people with 15 years experience edge over me, so i just want to do the best i can with what i have to work with. core may be outdated for todays pro games but i think its still very relevant for getting new players into the game with success. question is when is the right time to try abd tackle the pro stlye and how to do it.

    I haven't seen "core" so I don't really have an answer but I wanted to say poker isn't like MMA/sports. If one works hard/smart at poker and has a reasonable emotional control you can learn to beat low stakes games pretty quickly. It certainly won't take 15 years to beat live 2/5NL.
  • keasbeykeasbey Red Chipper Posts: 91 ✭✭
    edited July 2018
    core is mostly about exploitative play and has very little if any GTO content. despite being outdated, its helpful for getting new players acquainted with world of poker. at least it was for me, since i can now beat 20nl on Global.

    i agree it wouldnt take 15 years to beat 2/5 but thats bc those games are full of rec whales, or people not studying GTO hard. but pit a player like me vs a guy like joe mckeehan how could i ever catch up to his ability when i am starting out now?

    id love to get to work using piosolver to improve myself.. most things in my life has been self taught so i know i can... i just dont know what im looking at. i watch some videos on it and i have more questions than answers


    im willing to work hard but i have no idea how to work smart
  • keasbeykeasbey Red Chipper Posts: 91 ✭✭
    keasbey wrote: »

    im willing to work hard but i have no idea how to work smart

    It's extremely simple!

    If you're very serious, you go spend the money and learn from very serious players with the best tools. If you're not, then don't waste your money on something you're not serious about.

    yeah but who are these players? i dont know anyome!
  • The MuleThe Mule Red Chipper Posts: 790 ✭✭✭
    edited July 2018
    RFBComp wrote: »
    Thank you @PBF_Prodigy. What training software or site would you recommend to learn the latest and greatest? I don’t want to waist time learning obsolete material.

    Whatever you do, don’t waist your time reading “Easy Game” - the guy c-bets 70% - in a 3-bet pot !!! Sooooo Outdated !!!!!
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Las VegasPosts: 5,056 -
    kenaces wrote: »
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    Most of the GTO content in our PRO library that has come out recently or that will be coming out soon is by Adam Jones, Gareth James, Andrew Brokos and Brad Lampman. I can think of multiple reasons why they might not want to publish their results, and I don't intend to ask them to do so.

    It seems to me that any training site should make sure it's teaching pros have a solid history of results. This issue is pet peeve of mine. I have seen many examples of training sites continuing to let guys stay on as coaches even when they haven't make actual profits on the felt in years. I have seen this on CR/DC/STOX/RIO. Even if you are unwilling to publish results you should at the very minimum has a process in place to verify/review them internally.
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    Anyway, I think the question here is: "Does RCP PRO+CORE at $50/month provide more value than whatever you get for $100/month at RIO?" For you the answer is a loud and clear "no." My assertion is that for many less advanced players the answer is yes, OR the value of CORE at $5/week is more-suited to their needs. Presumably RIO content isn't all GTO? Does Jen Shahade still make content?

    I haven't seen "core" so I don't have an opinion but wanted to point our you can get the basic membership to RIO for $10/mo.

    I thought Shadade just make OFC content which I haven't watched as I don't play the game. Is there some issue with her?

    I doubt any site's content is 100% about GTO but I am not really watching that many videos these days so I can't say.

    No she's great, just the first person there who came to mind that wasn't likely to be producing GTO content.
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  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Las VegasPosts: 5,056 -
    edited July 2018
    Right, I think this is what is called a "frank and forthright" discussion, and I wanted to jump in again to highlight a couple of points.

    Since I am relatively new to the decision making process, I wasn't involved in seeking out the bulk of our coaches. That said, I doubt they would have been on the site's radar without being consistent winners. Now that I have input into hiring decisions, part of my selection criteria is that they are successful. It's an obvious necessary condition and I can't imagine doing anything else.

    I can also confirm that unless something really weird happens, Ben Sulsky will not be joining our team. Sorry, but there's only one of him.

    In his posts above, PBF identifies ~2016 as when solvers really started to make a mark in NLHE training material. Given that our production cycle contains inevitable lag, the fact that solver-based content began appearing in our PRO library at the end of 2016 (Gano: GTO River Bet Sizing) and has been an increasingly important part of our content since, suggests we're not exactly "outdated." And our ongoing efforts to develop our product will inevitably include a greater GTO emphasis in the future.

    @keasbey kindly mentions that he took up poker in October 2017 and identifies CORE as helping him become a winning player at his current chosen stakes. We get stories like that all the time.

    In the same way that coaches and content producers should be gauged on the basis of their results, I believe a poker training site can be assessed by the results of its students. Fundamentally this is why I stand by our products and why I am motivated to make Red Chip Poker even better.

    ~ Kat
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  • RFBCompRFBComp Red Chipper Posts: 4 ✭✭
    This thread turned into some healthy debate and I appreciate everyone’s thoughtful responses. @TheGameKat thank you for engaging in some healthy dialog as a lot of sites would have dismissed the criticism or even worse just deleted the posts. It’s great to hear from you and get a better understanding of the vision of Red Chip and I’m very happy with my purchase thus far.
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Las VegasPosts: 5,056 -
    RFBComp wrote: »
    This thread turned into some healthy debate and I appreciate everyone’s thoughtful responses. @TheGameKat thank you for engaging in some healthy dialog as a lot of sites would have dismissed the criticism or even worse just deleted the posts. It’s great to hear from you and get a better understanding of the vision of Red Chip and I’m very happy with my purchase thus far.

    Our philosophy is that we get better by encouraging such dialog, not stifling it. Glad to hear we're serving your needs.
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  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 5,007 ✭✭✭✭✭
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    To carry PBF_Prodigy's analogy one step further, everybody might have liked to have been like Mike, but even setting aside physical limitations, most people would never put in that sort of work, nor would they want to pay the huge financial premium for his coaching.

    You have to tailor your own game to your strengths and weaknesses. To say "Well, just turn all your weaknesses into strengths" is nice, but kind of a copout. There is the story of the golfer who went for instruction, and told his teacher he wanted to swing just like Sam Snead. The golfer was an out of shape 5' 6" and Sam Snead is 5' 11". The teacher said "Sam Snead could bend over and pick up a golf ball from the bottom of the cup without bending his knees. When you are that flexible and have gained 5" in height, come back and I'll teach you to swing like him. In the meantime, I'll teach you to swing like you." We can nitpick analogies between golf and poker, but the point is you should focus your limited practice and study time on the things that will work in your games, that fit with your aptitudes and natural skills, and if that means exploits against the players who drop the most money in your games, then so be it. Even if you continue to higher levels, that will never be time poorly spent. And let's be honest, how many of us are really going to be playing poker at the highest levels? That's a great thing to aspire to, but it's not for everyone.

  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 5,007 ✭✭✭✭✭
    keasbey wrote: »
    with poker its similiar.. i cant expect to compete against people with 15 years experience edge over me

    You can easily compete with lots of players with 15 years "experience" (because lots of them suck), you just can't compete with players who have trained for years with the poker equivalent of the Gracies.

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