Frustrating

dnoyeBdnoyeB DetroitRed Chipper Posts: 284 ✭✭
It's tough watching players enter with trash hands and hit. And make bad calls and hit. With stacks of ill gotten gains in front of them. Soon to be traded with another wild player. While you sit there making only the profitable calls but of course not hitting them all. But you fight with your good calls grinding out maybe 50 or 100bb profit. And then you catch a bad beat.

The only way to survive the varyiance is to see more hands. But if they keep straddling it makes effectively have fewer buyins. I can deal with this online but in live I don't typically bring more than 2 buyins. I end up getting sent home.

It's frustrating. Is there any other way besides having more buyins to deal with this?

Comments

  • Yanming ZYanming Z Red Chipper Posts: 294 ✭✭✭
    Having sufficient bankroll is the foundation of any investment endeavor.

    So the answer to your question: no
  • kenaceskenaces Red Chipper Posts: 1,366 ✭✭✭✭
    "it's all in the game Yo"
  • keasbeykeasbey Red Chipper Posts: 91 ✭✭
    edited July 7
    i think the real question is how to deal psychologically with having people constantly outdraw you at the worst times.

    you can sit for 5 hours grinding out decent win rate and then you get action on K23 only to lose a big pot on the river to a guy who turns two pair on the river KK77
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 1,241 -
    Yeah, it's very important to establish the degree to which the psychological element of this is doing you in. In the final part of my $1/2 series I argue that we should embrace bad beats and downswings, because it is precisely the variance responsible for them that also makes poker a profitable game for skilled players. I'd also be the first to admit it's easier said than done.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,486 ✭✭✭✭✭
    dnoyeB wrote: »
    It's tough watching players enter with trash hands and hit. And make bad calls and hit. With stacks of ill gotten gains in front of them. Soon to be traded with another wild player. While you sit there making only the profitable calls but of course not hitting them all. But you fight with your good calls grinding out maybe 50 or 100bb profit. And then you catch a bad beat.

    The only way to survive the varyiance is to see more hands. But if they keep straddling it makes effectively have fewer buyins. I can deal with this online but in live I don't typically bring more than 2 buyins. I end up getting sent home.

    It's frustrating. Is there any other way besides having more buyins to deal with this?

    Seems like your "calling" quite a bit. Might want to define your strategy and how you make money in poker.

    Why do you straddle? Why play a shorter stack game that is in general already short stack?
  • dnoyeBdnoyeB DetroitRed Chipper Posts: 284 ✭✭
    edited July 7
    I never straddle. They do. Which turns a $1/$2 game into a $1/$4 game. (there were some double and triple straddles too) Its kind of like a tournament with an aggressive blinds schedule. It becomes less skill and more luck. So I am wondering if there are certain qualities of games I should look for and ones I should avoid. What makes a low variance game except no straddling? Oh and I guess not getting 5 callers also. Seems like I learned these two things last night. I should just change tables. Seems like a lot of those players kept buying in and seemed like $2/$5 players to me with all the bluffing.

    "see more hands" not see more flops. Be in the seat. It works for me online where I can open another table. That seems to reduce the variance. Plus I have more buyins there.

    I'm not really certain but its frustrating leaving all my money on the table.
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 1,241 -
    A low variance game may be less emotionally stressful, but not necessarily more profitable. I seem to recall one bit of Ed's advice in genuinely wild games is simply to have more money in your pocket, but I realize this isn't always advisable from a bankroll management point of view.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 1,678 ✭✭✭✭
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    A low variance game may be less emotionally stressful, but not necessarily more profitable. I seem to recall one bit of Ed's advice in genuinely wild games is simply to have more money in your pocket, but I realize this isn't always advisable from a bankroll management point of view.

    Depends on the depth of your bankroll
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,486 ✭✭✭✭✭
    It becomes less skill and more luck.

    @dnoyeB I would look at your strategy again. Seems like a lot of superstition with "being in the seat that gets more hands" or the game being more luck sounds like a terrible mindset.

    Short stack in general has more variance, but doesn't mean you should avoid them. Games that have the straddle going and people drinking and playing trash are the games sharks want to play in. The $1/$2 players still think $20 is a big bet and $12 is a small bet. Where one can be 5 big blinds and the other one can be 6 big blinds. They think more in terms of money and not bb, so you can use that to your advantage.

    Your opening size doesn't have to stay at 5bb with a straddle, it can now be 3bb for $12. Your calling ranges tighten up a ton! Your 3 bets are more weighted towards value and on the smaller size. Your strategy should be just to play tight and pick your value spots with what is effectively 50bb. Hands like 66-22, KJ-KQo, A10-AJo could be easy folds from EP. Especially if you only have two buy-ins for the day. You need to pick high +EV spots. It's boring but profitable. In the $1/$3 game I play in with a $6 straddle, i'll often often to 2.5x ($15). Still get the same number of folds as they are just playing their hand. The straddle will call wider, but that's ok because you will have position. With the extra 2bb (straddle) in the middle, you have more incentive to steal the blinds from the CO, BTN, SB, and BB. Where I may open $15 UTG with a ton of value, I may make it $21 with a hand like 75s from the BTN. Have to ask yourself why you are betting!?!?!

    Try out some 50bb tables online and see how you do. Great practice for live games.
  • dnoyeBdnoyeB DetroitRed Chipper Posts: 284 ✭✭
    Austin, you are still misunderstanding me. "time" is what combats variance. More hands simply means being in the seat and the dealer putting 2 random cards in front of you. That's a hand. More of those is how you combat variance. If you have more buyins you can be at the table longer. But if the game gets expensive your time at the table gets shorter unless you are lucky enough to keep your stack up. And we don't count on luck.

    Also, I don't really play short stack. Max buyin is $200 and I keep at $150 minimum.

    I think your other points are valid. I do well online. Things work online. But for instance, in this live game I raised a $4 straddled pot with 2 callers in the BUT to $50. I got a caller with something like Q7o. This is great! except a 4 flush came and sent my AA home.

    So while the game is great I'm wondering if its just not for me because it plays too big and I don't have the bankroll for it. I mean I am likely better than many of the $2/$5 players but I know better than to try without a much bigger bankroll...

    So at this point I need to (without a big bankroll)
    1. stay away from games with too many straddles.
    2. stay away from games where too many people call.
    3. ??
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 1,678 ✭✭✭✭
    3. Play at stakes where your have a proper bankroll.
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 1,241 -
    I've been discussing this topic recently with some Vegas grinders, although in my case it's a bigger problem in PLO. A couple of tentative conclusions we've reached in the NLHE context:

    1. In wild games with pots that are generally multiway (thus lots of callers, obviously), it takes longer for our skill edge to play out. For example, you may be getting all-in with 25% equity 5-ways, which long-term is clearly a winning proposition, but you can lose in that spot on many consecutive occasions before you finally win one. With only a couple of buy-ins in your pocket, the most likely outcome of any given session of that game texture is to go home broke.

    2. Much of the off-the-table work most of us do explicitly involves heads-up postflop situations. It's conceivable that we''re simply less skilled in massively multiway situations because of lack of theoretical study.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,486 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Have you tried to play like Kevin on LATB? Plays roughly 8 vpip and PFR of maybe 5. You can stay at the table longer and wait for the highest EV spots. It's good you go a calls for 12x the straddle, but in general are you raising 12x over 2 limpers because you have AA? I think my standard in that spot would be like $25.

    Those players that ask how much you raised preflop when your AA gets cracked and you tell them $15 and they say "you gotta make it at least $50 here" ..... Don't listen to those guys. Bet the maximum amount you think 1-2 players will still call without turning your hand face up.

    What is your bankroll for $1\$2? Why not carry more buy-ins with you? Do you tilt after losing two buy ins?
  • dnoyeBdnoyeB DetroitRed Chipper Posts: 284 ✭✭
    I don't typically raise that big at all. But when the table is playing big if you don't want a family pot it's what you have to do. Else anyone with any type of hand with a name is calling you. Those multiway pots are even more volatile.

    I like to go with about 2.5 buyins. So $200 buyin I typically take $500 to $550. I keep a minimum of $150 on the table.

    Honestly I do pretty well. I played for many hours and was up to about $800 when I lost my whole stack to a call I had to make. Put back in for the $150 in my pocket and immediately lost that to a trash hand. I'm happy with both plays but I can't sustain this.

    Trying to figure out how to avoid the volatility and minimize the variance. Trying to understand characteristics of a lower variance table so I can start changing.
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,486 ✭✭✭✭✭


    Maybe approaching the game with the wrong mindset. Too attached to the money and not thinking about it as a game.
  • dnoyeBdnoyeB DetroitRed Chipper Posts: 284 ✭✭
    Can't disagree with that. I seem better when I play 50NL online than $1/$2 live lately even though the online players I think are tougher.
  • Paul_KPaul_K DFWRed Chipper Posts: 234 ✭✭✭
    dnoyeB wrote: »
    The only way to survive the varyiance is to see more hands.

    No, no, no... this is how they temporarily ride their variance wave.

    You survive the variance by sticking to your game and playing well through the bad runs.
  • dnoyeBdnoyeB DetroitRed Chipper Posts: 284 ✭✭
    LOL, people still think seeing more hands means being looser. That is NOT what I mean. How about "surviving more orbits". Does that paint a better picture?
  • AkashicAkashic Red Chipper Posts: 55 ✭✭
    edited August 5
    dnoyeB wrote: »
    So at this point I need to (without a big bankroll)
    1. stay away from games with too many straddles.
    2. stay away from games where too many people call.
    3. ??
    1. Build an Actual Bankroll

    You are posting on the forum asking for help and have gotten the same response several times. Yet, you ignore the answers. ¿☺? People here are giving advice and trying to help out. The answers you got are a month old, but still hold up.

    Short term solution: Instead of bringing 2 buy-ins, how about bringing 4 buy-ins if you are that desperate to play. Skip a session and roll the bankroll over.

    Long term solution: Instead of bringing 2 buy-ins, how about bringing 20 buy-ins if you are that desperate to play. Skip more sessions and roll the bankroll over.

    You need to work out your strategy against this type of game instead of looking down on the fish. Don't scare them away. It is all about adapting correctly.
  • dnoyeBdnoyeB DetroitRed Chipper Posts: 284 ✭✭
    Bankrolls don't just magically appear. I'm asking specifically if there is something other than a big bankroll that can reduce the effects of variance. If you think the answer is no then just say no. No point in you attacking me for asking the question.
  • EazzyEazzy Red Chipper Posts: 914 ✭✭✭✭
    A few years ago I had a bit of a bad run and begun to revamp my game. I began to realize that variance had a negative impact on my game. And yes I know we need variance to make money, but it comes with a cost.

    But variance has a cost for most players (some few thrive on it and play better too it)
    these cost include

    1) you need a bigger bankroll ....most mutual fund base stock selection 90% on offsetting risk to the portfolio, and 10% for profitability (though the 10% is very important)
    2)you tilt more...and thus more prone to mistakes.
    3) you hit stop looses more often and or need to take more time off to offset the tilt which cost you money
    4) It can be tiring. nit set miner types sit at the table for 12+ hours, often makeing $5 and hour or something, but if I can only stay for 3 hours, making 15 he's actually doing better.
    5) your feed back loop is much worse with high variance lines so its harder to improve.

    What i realized is that I could use ev and variance when evaluating lines. To me the golden grail of poker is finding lines the increase EV while keeping the same variance or even lowering it.

    I also realized that lines that had high variance but also might have -EV were absolute bankroll killers...

    If a line, or a way of dealing with a player or game has high variance thats fine, but it must come with a large increase of EV. But at low stake poker you can push many edges that have relitivly low increases in Variance with good increases in EV. I tend to find I can just avoid slightly +ev lines that have high variance...sure 3 betting a very lagy player with AJ and then calling him down with A high may be +EV, but with high variance....but just calling him, and playing some fit or fold, may have close to the same EV...maybe more....but much lower EV.

    So I began to look at better lines and I began to gear my poker learning to the skills that would increase EV while lowering variance. these included lines like weighting for more information. I don't raise/ or shove draws on the flop very often, I weight to see if my opponent will tell me my bluff is good by checking the turn or giving me a bet tell. Both plays are probably +EV, the second may be better ev or slightly worse, but it has lower variance..

    Concentrating on those skills that would allow me to find more +EV lines while not adding a lot more variance. These included skills like hand reading, and getting control (understanding how they play their hand).

    Sure in some games I have to just embrace high variance because they provide such good EV...If a player forces variance on me, I happy to go along, for the increased EV, but I don't have to add to it.

    I outlined my approach, and some of the results here.....

    https://forum.redchippoker.com/discussion/5898/fifty-thousand-at-1-2-in-just-over-3-years#latest


  • kenaceskenaces Red Chipper Posts: 1,366 ✭✭✭✭
    TheGameKat wrote: »

    1. In wild games with pots that are generally multiway (thus lots of callers, obviously), it takes longer for our skill edge to play out.

    2. Much of the off-the-table work most of us do explicitly involves heads-up postflop situations. It's conceivable that we''re simply less skilled in massively multiway situations because of lack of theoretical study.

    #1 seems backward. You seem to be suggesting that your WR is lower on a great table than it would be on a nitty table? If you have a higher(much higher in this example) win-rate you will reduce the size and duration of your downswings. I think that is what most people mean when these "how to reduce my variance" threads pop up.

    #2 When I am playing lots of live poker I spend a lot of time thinking about MW pots as they are the norm. You are right it is harder to "prove my work" in these spots. I find Pokersnowie and Monker lacking in these analyses as the preflop ranges we face in a live game are going to be MUCH wider than GTO would suggest(no such thing at GTO solution for MW pots).

  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 1,241 -
    No, our win-rate is likely to be higher on a great table, but we're probably going to win a smaller % of pots. So while the higher win-rate helps us overcome variance about the mean, the session-to-session swings can be larger.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • kenaceskenaces Red Chipper Posts: 1,366 ✭✭✭✭
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    No, our win-rate is likely to be higher on a great table,

    You just made my case for me. So if our WR is higher in these "crazy" games isn't it because we were able to effectively apply our "skill edge"?

    You seem to be saying the opposite above.

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