Still havent had that Aha moment in 1/2 live

keasbeykeasbey Red Chipper Posts: 91 ✭✭
edited July 10 in Live Poker Hands
Yup, my biggest leak has been river calls. I think i have spewn off something like $800 in value on the river in the last 8 sessions.

despite this i am +$41 (wew... lad) in ~30 hours of play, which i guess is better than losing. I dont usually have trouble getting value from strong hands but i need to just believe their shitty call call DONK $50 river bets because its always some random 2 pair or dinged ace that they were chasing when i have TT or QQ or top TPTK on the flop. its never "oo theyre bluffing with a scare card"

I would have just folded every time i faced big river pressure i would have a bankroll $800 bigger. funny because in this time i havent snapped off a single bluff or value owned hand.

anyway mostly just mad at myself for playing poorly. I notice that its stressful for me to play with these loose passive sticky guys. its hard for me to build ranges for them at the table and most of the time it feels like its a pure guess what they are calling with.

I am also trying to figure out how to manipulate the pot geometry the best... so many flops we are like 3-4 SPR @100BB buy ins so raising the turn just becomes awkward.. raise-shoving seems too strong and like you will miss alot of value by blowing people off hands and raising even more moderately leaves very little back on the river.

Heres an example of where i wish i was buying for $500 / 250bb instead of 100.

UTG is drunk ATM machine.. basically the dream
everyone else is just trying to play hands with this moron as he will lead big bets with totally nothing OFTEN

UTG opens $40
2 players flat
Hero looks down at pocket ACES in the small blind, with stack of 200.
didnt REALLY want to jam because i wanted UTG to call and he wasnt this much of a tard
Hero 3 bets to 120
UTG folds :(
MP1 raises all in
other guy folds
I call and take down the pot with little fanfare

but in that spot, with the 3 bet size i just dont know what i should do.. if i jam i doubt i get max value. if i dont jam i am going into a flop with 0.3 SPR it just doesnt make sense either way. If i had more money behind i know the UTG guy would have called or shoved.

But i dont know if overall buying in for 250bb is really the right strategy... should i just stick to 100bb and just play the SPR game with broadway hands?

Comments

  • Christian SotoChristian Soto RCP Coach Posts: 2,191 ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 10
    keasbey wrote: »
    Yup, my biggest leak has been river calls. I think i have spewn off something like $800 in value on the river in the last 8 sessions.

    despite this i am +$41 (wew... lad) in ~30 hours of play, which i guess is better than losing. I dont usually have trouble getting value from strong hands but i need to just believe their shitty call call DONK $50 river bets because its always some random 2 pair or dinged ace that they were chasing when i have TT or QQ or top TPTK on the flop. its never "oo theyre bluffing with a scare card"

    I would have just folded every time i faced big river pressure i would have a bankroll $800 bigger. funny because in this time i havent snapped off a single bluff or value owned hand.

    anyway mostly just mad at myself for playing poorly. I notice that its stressful for me to play with these loose passive sticky guys. its hard for me to build ranges for them at the table and most of the time it feels like its a pure guess what they are calling with.

    I am also trying to figure out how to manipulate the pot geometry the best... so many flops we are like 3-4 SPR @100BB buy ins so raising the turn just becomes awkward.. raise-shoving seems too strong and like you will miss alot of value by blowing people off hands and raising even more moderately leaves very little back on the river.

    Heres an example of where i wish i was buying for $500 / 250bb instead of 100.

    UTG is drunk ATM machine.. basically the dream
    everyone else is just trying to play hands with this moron as he will lead big bets with totally nothing OFTEN

    UTG opens $40
    2 players flat
    Hero looks down at pocket ACES in the small blind, with stack of 200.
    didnt REALLY want to jam because i wanted UTG to call and he wasnt this much of a tard
    Hero 3 bets to 120
    UTG folds :(
    MP1 raises all in
    other guy folds
    I call and take down the pot with little fanfare

    but in that spot, with the 3 bet size i just dont know what i should do.. if i jam i doubt i get max value. if i dont jam i am going into a flop with 0.3 SPR it just doesnt make sense either way. If i had more money behind i know the UTG guy would have called or shoved.

    But i dont know if overall buying in for 250bb is really the right strategy... should i just stick to 100bb and just play the SPR game with broadway hands?

    Flat w the AA there. Thank me later
  • The MuleThe Mule Red Chipper Posts: 770 ✭✭✭
    I remember my Aha moment playing live $1/$2. My opponents were hunting high and low for opportunities to take on me. But I kept stumbling away, and learnt the valuable lesson that it’s no better to be safe than sorry.
  • JMCollinsJMCollins Los AngelesRed Chipper Posts: 5 ✭✭
    No one is bluffing enough at 1/2 for river calls to be correct unless you have played a lot with a person and can point at multiple hands where it has been proven otherwise. It's that simple.
  • Zero CoolZero Cool Red Chipper Posts: 233 ✭✭✭
    This also use to be my biggest leak and probably one most players go through at some point so don't be too hard on yourself. For me it started out because I didn't understand hand reading and didn't look beyond my own two cards. As I started learning and growing as a player I began to see the spots that I should fold but didn't have enough confidence to let the hand go. I finally told myself for the next month I was going to pay them off when I believed I should fold to prove to myself that I was correct and this became an expensive lesson but one I needed. After a month and $600 in river call losses I'd finally had enough. I was in a hand with an older passive player and had flopped a pair of A's with AQ. I bet the flop and he called, I bet the turn and he called, and on a river J he donk bet into me. After thinking for a minute I knew the only hand he would do this with was AJ so I told him AJ was good and mucked my hand face up. He smiled and turned over AJ. I've never look back.
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 1,027 -
    Nice
    Moderation In Moderation
  • Ronald WarrenRonald Warren Red Chipper Posts: 7 ✭✭
    I was being forced to fold top pair from this guy who had position on me. It had happened multiple times. Then after raising pre I checked against villain on a monotone board all spades turn was another spade. I didn't have a spade in my hand, to this point it went check check. River was a brick , I check again and villain fired huge. I had enough, I called with A high and was good. I guess I was tilted at the right time.
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,486 ✭✭✭✭✭
    1) big river bets are 90% value
    2) you can safely fold TT-QQ and AK against 4bets and sleep like a baby at night.
    3) enjoy getting direct odds with flush draws and sd instead of forcing the action against players who don't fold.
  • Adam KeenanAdam Keenan Red Chipper Posts: 21 ✭✭
    Zero Cool wrote: »
    This also use to be my biggest leak and probably one most players go through at some point so don't be too hard on yourself. For me it started out because I didn't understand hand reading and didn't look beyond my own two cards. As I started learning and growing as a player I began to see the spots that I should fold but didn't have enough confidence to let the hand go. I finally told myself for the next month I was going to pay them off when I believed I should fold to prove to myself that I was correct and this became an expensive lesson but one I needed. After a month and $600 in river call losses I'd finally had enough. I was in a hand with an older passive player and had flopped a pair of A's with AQ. I bet the flop and he called, I bet the turn and he called, and on a river J he donk bet into me. After thinking for a minute I knew the only hand he would do this with was AJ so I told him AJ was good and mucked my hand face up. He smiled and turned over AJ. I've never look back.

    I had a similar experience folding AA despite 3 betting and having LAG callers. The board texture was way to wet and i got away from it despite it being the opportunity for a massive pot. I would have lost but sat back and thanked the RC team for the board texture video!
  • Dean MDean M Red Chipper Posts: 171 ✭✭✭
    Flat w the AA there. Thank me later

    Explanation please? I assume this is going to take us to a 3 or 4 way all-in on the flop since SPR is going to be close to 1.

    It seems like our chances are better getting all-in PF against one other player with a big pair.

  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 1,499 ✭✭✭✭
    Dean M wrote: »
    Flat w the AA there. Thank me later

    Explanation please? I assume this is going to take us to a 3 or 4 way all-in on the flop since SPR is going to be close to 1.

    It seems like our chances are better getting all-in PF against one other player with a big pair.

    UTG is a drunk aggro donkey. He will lead with ATC. But he may fold if he face aggression aka something which looks strong.
    By flatting you let him keep firing with all his junk instead of making him folding them when your raise.

    Also SPR will be tiny: open-bet is 40$ and Hero has 200, with 2 MP calling. By flatting, pot will be 160 (plus blinds) and your stack... 160. So you are going to play for stacks with your monster. Even better as you've position and MP may give action to UTG c-bet pretty lightely. You can take MP1 and MP2's stack on the fly.

    You doubled up when you could have quadrupled up.
  • Dean MDean M Red Chipper Posts: 171 ✭✭✭
    Thanks Red - makes sense.
  • flyfishflyfish Red Chipper Posts: 16 ✭✭
    keasby. I too have had same problem paying off river bets. One thing that helped me was the video by Ed Miller. The Course, part III, "Don't pay people off." As a matter of fact, when I recently sat down for a cash session, one of my goals was to avoid hero calls when possible or to only make hero calls when opponent's story absolutely makes no sense. Many times on the river facing a bet, I can hear Ed Miller's voice telling me not to pay them off, especially when there are straight and flush possibilities out there.

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