Biggest Pot Of My Life ($1/$2 @ RCP Meetup)

ZacShawZacShaw Red Chipper Posts: 165 ✭✭✭
$1/$2 at the Mirage (Red Chip Poker Meetup)

Effective stacks are about $600, I have everyone in the hand covered but not by a lot.

I just sat down at this table a few hands ago. We are playing "showtime", so everyone has agreed to fold face up.

I was so excited I didn't take good notes on this hand so some of the sizing might be a little off, but you should get the gist.

Everyone folds face up to James "SplitSuit" Sweeney in the cutoff who raises to $10.

I call on the button with :6h :6c

The small blind raises to $30. James calls. I check the table for and see no face-up sixes, I see a couple face cards and no aces. I make the call to set mine.

Flop ($92)

:6s :Ad :Kd

Set! Small blind checks, James bets $45.

I raise to $100.

Small blind calls. James calls.

Turn ($392)

:Tc

Small blind and James both check, I bet $300.

James does a short tank and folds.

Small blind tanks for a decent amount of time and then shoves all in with a sort of resignation that seems genuine.

I call.

Small blind shows :As :2s , no ace on the river and I win a nearly $1000 pot.

I feel like my flop raise was too small. The bigger thing is James immediately said, "Why do you have to be such a nit and bet $300 on the flop?" because I believe he had a strong draw with decent equity. And I took that to mean had I bet, say $240, I would get more calls from drawing hands I am still ahead of, and in the short term it might be higher variance but in the long run, giving draws better odds to call is more +EV. Am I getting that right? @SplitSuit please correct me on any of this if your memory is better than mine.

The other interesting thing is James said the player I stacked would have never put it all in there had he not transferred his crazy image to me when I first sat down. The other player, he suggested, simply assumed I played hyper aggressive like James and she was good there enough of the time.

Anyway, looking forward to hearing your thoughts on this hand and on concepts you think I should be looking more deeply into. I'll hit CORE for some studying and come at you with a podcast summarizing the feedback I get, and we can talk about this hand as a community.

Comments

  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 1,027 -
    That wasn't image transfer, kid, it was your rock star hair.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • SplitSuitSplitSuit RCP Coach Posts: 3,900 -
    I was seat 1, you were seat 2, and she was seat 4...so the positions have to be incorrect here.
    My latest poker course brings the popular book 'Poker's 1%' to life- The One Percent
  • ZacShawZacShaw Red Chipper Posts: 165 ✭✭✭
    That's my recollection of seats too... but that would put you in the cutoff, me on the button, and she in the big blind? So she was actually the big blind not the small blind?
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 1,027 -
    Usually these things are resolved when someone explains they were in the bathroom.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • BoilerAceBoilerAce Red Chipper Posts: 388 ✭✭
    Congrats on the HUGE POT!
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,486 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Congrats on the big pot.

    Why are you raising on the flop and what hands are you repping that doesn't 3 bet preflop?
  • Ginny DGinny D Red Chipper Posts: 2 ✭✭
    edited July 10
    Hello Zac – I’m the villain from seat four. Or as I like to call myself, Hero.

    I thought about this hand a lot. Learned a lot. Not sure it was $600 worth of learning but…you know. We all learn at a different rate. Here is some of my thinking.

    Two aces have been folded face up. Because we’re playing Showtime.

    I looked down at Ace Deuce of Spades and decided on a plan. If no one raises, then I 3Bet. SplitSuit had made it $10. Zac called. I made it $30. Folds around and SplitSuit & Zac both call. My plan was to fold if raised on the flop if an unfavorable monochrome board, or a few other conditions.

    SplitSuit’s $10 preflop open didn’t bother me because, well…SpiltSuit. I can’t worry about what he is opening with yet.

    My focus is on Zac. On the flop, he rose two inches in his seat, leaning forward. His eyes never left the board. He liked that flop. What does he have? I start running through hands he could have called with. No Ax combination because all aces are out. He’d have raised Pocket Kings. I don’t consider pocket sixes because in 1-2 games I play back home, pocket sixes don’t tend to call $30 preflop unless - cascading calls.

    (I’d find out later Zac was from a broken game that was more splashy and aggressive. $30 was nothing).

    I bet the flop. SpitSuit calls. When Zac raises to $100 I put him on a hurry up and win kind of hand. Kx or flush draw.

    Ten on the turn wasn’t a diamond or spade. Check. Check. $300. Why is he betting so much? King Ten Clubs? Not possible. I think my Ace might be good. It feels like aggression meant to knock me off my hand and send me to a corner. I’m not sure. Based on my stack size I can’t just call $300. I’d face the same type of problem on the river. I’ve seen SplitSuit put people in these impossible positions. AND a few hands earlier I folded best to a decent turn bet from Doug. AND I’ve recently learned about overbetting turns.

    I can’t call. It is shove or fold. I have the only Ace. His Kx is no good here. I take my time and run through the hands again. I look around the table at face up cards. I can still fold and live to crush him another day. I’m not sure. But I couldn’t find the fold.

    I made the wrong decision. I got seduced by the Ace and failed to stay with my plan. If I had stayed with my plan I would have been in the bathroom when Zac bet $300 on the turn and he would have been SplitSuit’s problem. I had a hand that could not improve (all Aces were accounted for). At the time I felt like having the only available ace was good. When studying the hand I realized I punted off my stack with a hand that could not improve. And… Zac was too deep to fold to my shove. A shove couldn’t produce the desired effect. I say this because his call timing suggested he was not considering what I could have. (Better set, straights). Plus I never (except when I do) get into these types of shouting matches with unknowns. Zac was an unknown. I’ve been taught to study unknowns and learn when/how to fight. I’d only seen him play one hand and it was pissing contest aggression.

    I often have to fight a little harder for pots and stand up to a lot of bully type aggression. What I can’t figure out is why I didn’t find a fold. Was I sure my top pair was good? Or –was I trying to stand up to “another guy pushing me around”?

    It was a really fun game and I had a great time at the meet-up. Hope to play against you all again.
  • Jeff PritchardJeff Pritchard Red Chipper Posts: 12 ✭✭
    @Ginny D
    I would say that there is a lot of over thinking here imho. I know because I've shipped a lot of unnecessary chips to my opponents via the "meta think" game. Ed Miller talks about it in The Coarse. In low stakes cash games (I realize this isn't your typical 1/2 game) people aren't raising the flop and making big bets on the turn unless they really like their hand. People at these stakes just don't bluff enough to make it plus ev to bluff catch here. He is telling you he really likes his hand. He told you once preflop, once on the flop and again on the turn.
    @ZacShaw
    In my opinion, your turn bet was too big and you were lucky to get paid off. That being said, there is at least a 50 percent chance I would have done the same thing. Although over betting the turn could look really bluffy. I don't know man I just picked up the game again after a ten year hiatus.
    Congrats on the pot and thanks for the podcast.
  • ZacShawZacShaw Red Chipper Posts: 165 ✭✭✭
    Wow this is awesome, I didn't expect to hear from you, @Ginny D, thanks for stopping by and explaining your side of things, and with an incredible sense of humor! I am super-impressed. This is going to make for an awesome podcast, getting to hear about this hand from your angle, mine as well as @SplitSuit 's. It's just a real treat to hear how other players perceive you, and you've written here with such descriptive detail, I can't thank you enough for sharing your perspective!

    Also thanks for making that important clarification -- if two aces were folded face up, that is a HUGE difference in analyzing the hand. Guess it's time to get back to working on my focus and attention, although to be fair that was my first 'showtime' and in retrospect I realize I need to put all those cards in the 'memory palace' like a stud game.

    @Austin - Thanks for the feedback. I got so caught up in the set, I honestly didn't think why I was raising, which I think is evident in the sizing I chose. It was more reactionary, if I had any thought at all, it was that Split doesn't have AA or KK, and Villain 2 probably doesn't either, so I better get some more money in the pot, and then if turn is scary I can slow down and evaluate, and if it's good I can jam a bunch of money in and try to deny equity to drawing hands. I realize that is not the most coherent line of thinking and thanks to your comment I'll definitely take that spot under the microscope. I was initially thinking in retrospect I should have bet more but I never considered just calling. I realized at the point it was pretty transparent that I had a set when I raise, that nobody's putting me on AK, and by raising my range is basically a set of 6s or QJ of diamonds. I think Split had one of those cards so he knew EXACTLY what I had when I raised. So by calling I wouldn't be narrowing my range down to one or two hands, I could still have a ton of different hands, I see the value in that. One of the biggest takeaways from this hand is that I need to focus more on other people's perception of my range, particularly in these situations with good players who are really good at putting me on a range. I have to be more 'careful' to represent a wider range, especially since in this game my opponents knew me so well and knew how few bluffs are ever in my range. I am working on the bluffs though, and I'm getting better at confusing players at the table by playing off of previous hands I played with them and their perception of my range as loose or tight in relation.

    @Jeff Pritchard - Thanks for your comment! I agree, I can see that a smaller turn bet would have been called in one or two spots... I have to sit down and do the math in Flopzilla, I'm curious to figure out if I had bet $240 and gotten called in even just one spot, how often I get beat on the river, and how often I win a bigger pot, not to mention how often both our hands improve and I get paid off... the more I think about it, the more I see the wisdom in Split shaking his head and saying, "Why do you have to be such a nit and bet $300?"

    Keep the feedback coming... if you've got 2 cents to share, I want to hear it. Tell me what I'm doing wrong, that's what I'm here for =)
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,486 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Showtime is interesting- gives you an idea of how people cheat online. What are the odds of flopping a set with 6 players already folding their cards face up?

    When you hold a PP there are 50 unseen cards with 2 sixes left in the deck. So 2 of 50 or 4% per card, so 12%. Now knowing 12 other cards and none of them being a 6, you're 2 outs of 38, now your closer to 16% to flop a set.

    What about having a flush draw on the flop? If all 12 cards were not diamonds, 9 of 38 now you have 23-24% per card or 47% to hit by the river.

    Playing a set of sixes, you should see how many diamonds have been exposed. If 3 diamonds have already been exposed, your 75% to win the hand and you can keep your bet pretty small to keep the case ace in.
  • Baby_SharkBaby_Shark Red Chipper Posts: 63 ✭✭
    Nice hand, Zac. You're my hero (and the voice that drives me to work everyday), so I'm rooting for you.
  • Paul_KPaul_K DFWRed Chipper Posts: 202 ✭✭✭
    @ZacShaw was bored with quads and multiple AA so he decided to table change. Who knew how well that would work out? :-)
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 1,027 -
    Slightly off topic, but whose idea was it to play "showtime" in the first place?
    Moderation In Moderation
  • SplitSuitSplitSuit RCP Coach Posts: 3,900 -
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    Slightly off topic, but whose idea was it to play "showtime" in the first place?

    yo
    My latest poker course brings the popular book 'Poker's 1%' to life- The One Percent
  • Ginny DGinny D Red Chipper Posts: 2 ✭✭
    Showtime was extremely valuable for me. That session helped change a lot about my game. I got to see in real time how many bad hands are dealt and what people do with them. You know, like call $30 preflop with pocket sixes. ;-)

    Returning to Lurking,
    -Hero
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 1,027 -
    SplitSuit wrote: »
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    Slightly off topic, but whose idea was it to play "showtime" in the first place?

    yo

    that was my guess
    Moderation In Moderation
  • SplitSuitSplitSuit RCP Coach Posts: 3,900 -
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    SplitSuit wrote: »
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    Slightly off topic, but whose idea was it to play "showtime" in the first place?

    yo

    that was my guess

    If I'm in a game AND there is a stupid variant being played...assume that I instigated it =P
    Ginny D wrote: »
    Showtime was extremely valuable for me. That session helped change a lot about my game. I got to see in real time how many bad hands are dealt and what people do with them. You know, like call $30 preflop with pocket sixes. ;-)

    Returning to Lurking,
    -Hero

    lol, nice dig =P (though to be fair...my hand was MUCH worse than Zac's lol)

    Nice to see you jump in the convo, so feel free to get out of lurker mode at anytime =)
    My latest poker course brings the popular book 'Poker's 1%' to life- The One Percent
  • NYI80283NYI80283 Red Chipper Posts: 50 ✭✭
    SplitSuit wrote: »
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    Slightly off topic, but whose idea was it to play "showtime" in the first place?

    yo

    Thats kind of a crappy thing to do. Not that I dont respect you pushing your edges every chance you get, but this game had your own forum members in it.
  • Eon137Eon137 Red Chipper Posts: 156 ✭✭
    edited July 12
    Hi all.

    For the record, I was in Seat 5 for this hand, and was a full participant in the "Showtime" game.
    NYI80283 wrote: »
    SplitSuit wrote: »
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    Slightly off topic, but whose idea was it to play "showtime" in the first place?

    yo

    Thats kind of a crappy thing to do. Not that I dont respect you pushing your edges every chance you get, but this game had your own forum members in it.

    I was a bit leery of playing this when James first suggested it, since I also thought it might put those of us unfamiliar with it at further disadvantage. I quickly changed my mind on this though.

    James used the "Showtime" variant to essentially turn the game into a group coaching session, with lots of discussion of thought process after each hand. It was a great way to engage everyone and share some strategy thoughts while enjoying a (mostly) friendly game. I think everyone enjoyed it (well, not all as much as Zac) and found it to be a great learning experience. Seeing the folded hands while action was still in play gave SO much more information, and allowed us to think about how blockers and dead outs affect decisions. It was a really good exercise.

    Sure, it slowed the game down by a few hands/hour. We made it up to the dealers by tossing them at least an extra red each down.
  • NinjahNinjah Red Chipper Posts: 1,075 ✭✭✭✭
    Ginny D wrote: »
    Showtime was extremely valuable for me. That session helped change a lot about my game. I got to see in real time how many bad hands are dealt and what people do with them. You know, like call $30 preflop with pocket sixes. ;-)

    Returning to Lurking,
    -Hero

    300bb deep and in position, 66 is a standard call here and in a game with aggressive players and deep stacked, I wouldn't be surprised to occasionally see A6s and K6s in his range as well. Your 3bet should have been around $50. You easily priced both of them in. There were other issues with the hand too but if they are talking about it in a podcast I'll let them break it down.
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,486 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Ninjah wrote: »
    Ginny D wrote: »
    Showtime was extremely valuable for me. That session helped change a lot about my game. I got to see in real time how many bad hands are dealt and what people do with them. You know, like call $30 preflop with pocket sixes. ;-)

    Returning to Lurking,
    -Hero

    300bb deep and in position, 66 is a standard call here and in a game with aggressive players and deep stacked, I wouldn't be surprised to occasionally see A6s and K6s in his range as well. Your 3bet should have been around $50. You easily priced both of them in. There were other issues with the hand too but if they are talking about it in a podcast I'll let them break it down.

    Agreed. Zac is not calling $30 with 66. He called $10 then called $20 to win $70, which is really standard closing the action. 3bet of $45 i think is good here. That would be my minimum being oop and deeper stack.

    Show time does seem like a good coaching environment, but also idk how true people are to play the same style. My style will adjust where I may fold 22-99 if there is a card exposed. Also shove naked flush draw more often with out the suite being exposed. Im sure 80% of my game probably stays the same though.
  • Paul_KPaul_K DFWRed Chipper Posts: 202 ✭✭✭
    I agree w @Austin... I'm sure this led to a lot of good discussion. But the more I think about it, this is a totally different game.

    I've never played it, but seems like this would really ignite the power of acting late preflop? I'm imagining opening a strong hand UTG and watching my favorable cards being exposed as the BB licks his chops.

    And Zac's setmine... not only getting 20-1 (x2) but also being very confident that his 2 cards are still in play. Looks pretty nice to me.
  • itsgoldenitsgolden Los Angeles, CARed Chipper Posts: 46 ✭✭
    edited July 25
    ZacShaw wrote: »
    I was initially thinking in retrospect I should have bet more but I never considered just calling. I realized at the point it was pretty transparent that I had a set when I raise, that nobody's putting me on AK, and by raising my range is basically a set of 6s or QJ of diamonds. I think Split had one of those cards so he knew EXACTLY what I had when I raised. So by calling I wouldn't be narrowing my range down to one or two hands, I could still have a ton of different hands, I see the value in that.

    I didn't really consider how raising the flop makes our range so transparent. Some things I am wondering:

    1. We have a set with 66s so don't we want to start building the pot to get stacks in given that we can confidently discount better sets?
    2. Can we just call one street and still reasonably get the remaining $530ish in by the river?
    3. Are we not worried about FDs and gutshots?

    As played, with $100 flop raise and stack sizes we make it correct for villains to draw to a better hand with some of the draws they could reasonably have given the PF action (generally speaking- not taking exposed cards into account).

    OTF
    $92- pot
    +$45- @SplitSuit 's bet
    +100- @ZacShaw 's raise
    = 237

    So @Ginny D is getting 237:100 or 2.37:1 (thus needs 26.7% equity to call assuming seeing flop & river or 13.4% for one card), if she folds @SplitSuit is getting 237:55 or 4.31:1 ( thus 18.8% equity to call assuming he sees flop& river, or 9.9% for one street). Once @Ginny D calls then the pot becomes 337 so the odds are 337:55 for @SplitSuit or 6.13:1 and at this point he needs 14% equity assuming seem flop & river or 7% for one street. So it looks like at this point he can profitably call with flush draws and even gutshots. (Let me know if my math doesn't check out)

    4. I agree with you @ZacShaw that the raise should have been larger, but how much larger? $140ish? What size would make it incorrect for flush draws to call? That is, if we choose the raising the flop line.

    5. If we just call flop, what is the plan moving forward?
  • sozziesozzie Ottawa, ON. CanadaRed Chipper Posts: 13 ✭✭
    Being a mixed game player, this really hurts...

    "Everyone folds face up to James "SplitSuit" Sweeney in the cutoff who raises to $10."

    ... what did everyone fold? Were any broadways folded? What about any diamonds?

    I think the bet sizing has been discussed quite a bit so I'll skip that. But knowing which cards have been folded should have a bit of sway on bet sizing as well, if you think they're on a draw and 2 diamonds, 1 J and 1Q have been folded then villain will be less incentivized to call if the cbets are too big and you want to keep them in the pot since you know they're draws are significantly weaker. No?

    That being said, awesome pot! It's always nerve racking to be in a huge pot and such a thrill when you come out on the winning side! Congrats Zac!
  • SplitSuitSplitSuit RCP Coach Posts: 3,900 -
    NYI80283 wrote: »
    SplitSuit wrote: »
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    Slightly off topic, but whose idea was it to play "showtime" in the first place?

    yo

    Thats kind of a crappy thing to do. Not that I dont respect you pushing your edges every chance you get, but this game had your own forum members in it.

    Playing showtime actually allowed us to have a fully-informed conversation and coaching flow throughout the session. That said, if anyone who played in this game feels that I edge-pressed inappropriately - please PM your name & seat # in the game and I'll gladly give you lifetime PRO for free.

    I would never want to do any of you wrong nor would I want to leave that kind of taste in one of your mouths.
    My latest poker course brings the popular book 'Poker's 1%' to life- The One Percent
  • Dustin NewmanDustin Newman Red Chipper Posts: 2 ✭✭
    This episode of the podcast is actually what brought me to the forum and made me sign up. This hand has already been broken down by people much more skilled than I but I did want to point out something that got under my skin while listening to the podcast...

    "No ace on the river..."

    Your opponent is drawing dead when the cards are turned over, an ace wouldn't have changed the outcome.
  • Russ IRuss I Red Chipper Posts: 75 ✭✭
    SplitSuit wrote: »
    Playing showtime actually allowed us to have a fully-informed conversation and coaching flow throughout the session.

    When I heard about the game the next day in the poker room, I thought "Dammit, I left too early. Missed an opportunity to get some free coaching."
  • GGECKOGGECKO Washington, D.C.Red Chipper Posts: 66 ✭✭
    edited August 5
    SplitSuit wrote: »
    Playing showtime actually allowed us to have a fully-informed conversation and coaching flow throughout the session. That said, if anyone who played in this game feels that I edge-pressed inappropriately - please PM your name & seat # in the game and I'll gladly give you lifetime PRO for free.

    I would never want to do any of you wrong nor would I want to leave that kind of taste in one of your mouths.

    This is why I subscribe to RCP. Besides the great coaching styles, each of them seem genuinely interested in making their students successful. To think Split would sacrifice the goodwill his business has built by taking a couple hundred dollars off of a student at a RCP meet-up is absurd.
  • SplitSuitSplitSuit RCP Coach Posts: 3,900 -
    GGECKO wrote: »
    This is why I subscribe to RCP...

    Cheers =)
    My latest poker course brings the popular book 'Poker's 1%' to life- The One Percent

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