Flopping a Set of Queens, Then what?!?

BoilerAceBoilerAce Red Chipper Posts: 343 ✭✭
Cash game. $1/$3
I have about $550
My typical play that needs serious correction.

I have :Qh :Qd on the button.
It’s raised to $12 across from me. I call on the button 4 players $50 ish

Flop :Kc :Qs :4s
The preflop opener makes it $30 (he’s a typical old guy reg that plays every night) One guy folds I call The blind folds.
Now there’s $110 or so in the pot, me and the preflop raiser, heads up.

Turn :2s
(I watch the guy check his hole cards. I’ve learned that people with two of the same suit always remember their hand is suited but people that check to see their cards only have one and have to check to see how big of which suit they have. So I KNOW WITHOUT A DOUBT that he now has a flush draw. It’s CRYSTAL clear).

Villain bets $15.
(I know this is a bet to keep me from betting more. I don't know the official name of it, but it screams, I want to see a card and I want to see it cheap which assures me that my tell that I saw earlier is 100% accurate.

I am sure the correct play is a raise here so his 18%ish draw is unprofitable.
But I'm an idiot and just smooth call his $15 because I want to get to showdown more than trying to make money here.....

River is a SPADE.

Villain bets $30.
I’m disgusted. I fold my set face up after telling him I know he doesn't have two spades but he has one...and that one is more than I have. He shows me the :Js

Questions.... How much do you raise on the turn knowing exactly what I know? $80-$100 more? Sometimes I feel like I'm just setting myself up to lose more. But I will get paid more often than not, so I need to adjust this in my game so I can actually be a winning player instead of a breakeven to maybe a winning player.
Would you check raise earlier in the hand and start building the pot more? I always want to get these to go to showdown and try not to lose my customers but it kills me in the end sometimes....Example A above.

Comments

  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 4,777 ✭✭✭✭✭
    When you said it goes 4 ways to the flop, were the two callers between you and the PFR or were they SB & BB?

    1) preflop is an easy 3 bet and if there are callers in the middle TT is also a 3 bet (squeeze).

    2) your hand is severely under repped on a board that hits callers a decent amount as well as PFR . Here you can raise it up to $85 on the flop and evaluate the turn.

    *Note if you had 3bet preflop and was called, the would be roughly $80-$120 with a $50-$75 cbet, making the turn around $200 with $450 behind. You are setting up to play for stacks.
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,487 ✭✭✭✭
    In general, slow-play as deviation, not as a default.

    If you're going to slow-play pre-flop and on the flop, then you'd better have a reaaaaaaaaalllly good reason for doing so. Otherwise, play your game, i.e., raise.
  • BoilerAceBoilerAce Red Chipper Posts: 343 ✭✭
    edited July 10
    In general, slow-play as deviation, not as a default.

    If you're going to slow-play pre-flop and on the flop, then you'd better have a reaaaaaaaaalllly good reason for doing so. Otherwise, play your game, i.e., raise.

    I have a low stakes cash game that is my normal game. Because of it, I have a lot of bad habits to break. It's a struggle for sure.

    So where is the proper raise here? post flop? On turn? I personally would never raise post flop here...because like I said, i don't want to lose a customer. But maybe I won't lose him at all? There's one school of thought that says get this to showdown (Doug Hull)....while the other school of thought is protect from being drawn out on.

    This is probably a good example to find out how it should be played correctly.
  • BoilerAceBoilerAce Red Chipper Posts: 343 ✭✭
    Austin wrote: »
    When you said it goes 4 ways to the flop, were the two callers between you and the PFR or were they SB & BB?

    1) preflop is an easy 3 bet and if there are callers in the middle TT is also a 3 bet (squeeze).

    2) your hand is severely under repped on a board that hits callers a decent amount as well as PFR . Here you can raise it up to $85 on the flop and evaluate the turn.

    *Note if you had 3bet preflop and was called, the would be roughly $80-$120 with a $50-$75 cbet, making the turn around $200 with $450 behind. You are setting up to play for stacks.

    One of the four players post flop was a blind. I don't remember which blind. I know he acted first after the flop with a check. There was the villain and then a late position player too.

    1) I'm so missing the boat on this check raise thing. I use it rarely at all especially at a casino table. I always see a situation like this as wanting to get as many players to put money in for as many streets as possible and hope that they don't draw out on me. I see check raising as telling them I have a big hand so they should fold.

    2) This is huge obstacle that I'm facing in my game. I see everyone playing for stacks except for me. I make the minimum $100 after hours of play....and i watch others win $1500. I can't seem to learn to play for stacks. Again, I feel that check raising will make everyone fold not build a pot to stacks. I know its not right but surely I'm not the only one to face this issue.

    If I keep reading hand corrections like, this maybe I'll get it through my thick head.

  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 4,777 ✭✭✭✭✭
    @BoilerAce don't over whelm yourself with trying to learn too much at once. Start with preflop, which is the foundation. Plug some of those leaks first, then start to develop your post flop game plan. The podcast below I was listening to while I was playing in my session yesterday. It talks about setting 3 month goals. Daniel gives a great break down of some steps you should be taking to improve your game.
    I have :Qh :Qd on the button.
    It’s raised to $12 across from me. I call on the button

    Here you are leaving out an important part of information. Let's say you are in seat 1, if the player across the table raised, does not make him UTG in seat 4? The important part you left off was the caller in the middle.

    UTG ($550) opens $12
    MP calls $12
    Hero BTN :QH: :QD: raises $42-$48.

    How did I arrive at $42-$48? If stacks are shorter and I have a strong value hand against a player who folds to 3 bets too often i'll make it 2.5x ($12 x 2.5 + $12 for the caller) Here stacks are pretty deep, so I think you can go as high as $60 preflop (5x the initial raise). If UTG is a huge whale i'll lean on $60 bet, if he or she is a tag or shorter stack i'll go on the smaller size.

    DONT WORRY ABOUT LOSING A CUSTOMER! THEY CAME TO GAMBLE, SO OBLIGE THEM.

    Maybe @TheGameKat can recommend some 3 betting RCP videos for you.

  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,487 ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 11
    BoilerAce wrote: »
    So where is the proper raise here? post flop? On turn? I personally would never raise post flop here...because like I said, i don't want to lose a customer. But maybe I won't lose him at all?

    The obvious answers are pre-flop and on the flop.

    The real question, though, is why.

    First of all, you'll need to start thinking in ranges rather than in hands. If you only 3bet, say, AA and KK pre-flop, then everyone else will know what you have when you 3bet. Another factor to consider is that, when you 3bet pre-flop, then AA and KK COULD be your cards. Think about that. Say that you 3bet pre-flop with KQs (a powerful hand, by the way), and flop comes out AT4r. All that you really have is a gut-shot straight draw, you think to yourself, so you'll check behind. But, by 3betting pre-flop, you tell a convincing story that you have AA (or AK) when you cbet. That's what will get your opponent wondering, and your opponent will fold a TON.

    Another concept: Playing multi-way pots is much harder than playing heads-up. By the fourth, fifth caller, etc., they could be holding anything, and you're forced to play the equity of your hand. If you called with, again, KQs and the flop went four ways, then you have to check back the AT4r flop. Someone will have hit something, and you have the fold equity that you need to bet.


    For the hand in question, QQ is the third-best (or maybe fourth-best) hand. If you're not raising with it, then what are you raising with? Like I said -- without a good reason to call, this is an automatic 3bet. And, when you showdown with it, it will be much more convincing when you 3bet as a steal later since others will believe that you really could have QQ (or better).

    On the flop, this is also likely a good raise spot. V could have a lot of hands that are far behind yours that will call. Again, think ranges. V could have AK, KQ (unlikely since you have QQ), two spades... heck, V might even get sticky with, say, JJ thinking that you're on a draw.

    The other common thinking is that you raise to charge your opponent to realize his equity. In practice, if V does have a draw and is going to continue, you want V to put money in (more money than odds demand) to see the next card. Why let V get a free card to see if his flush hits? Make him pay money to see if his flush hits.


    These aren't hard-and-fast rules. In fact, the opposite. And these are just the tip-of-the-iceberg in terms of thought-process and scenarios. But, IMO, they're good starting points to get you thinking about WHY you would want to apply pressure here pre-flop and likely on the flop. Once you have started to appreciate why, then you can consider if and when you might deviate.


    I'm not sure if that was helpful, unclear, confusing, or overwhelming (or a little of each! :) ).
  • SullySully Red Chipper Posts: 691 ✭✭✭
    BoilerAce wrote: »

    2) This is huge obstacle that I'm facing in my game. I see everyone playing for stacks except for me. I make the minimum $100 after hours of play....and i watch others win $1500. I can't seem to learn to play for stacks. Again, I feel that check raising will make everyone fold not build a pot to stacks. I know its not right but surely I'm not the only one to face this issue.

    Passivity is fatal to us. Our goal is to make the enemy passive. - Mao Zedong

    You are a passive player. Passive players are the food for the better players. To start playing for stacks and having a top tier winrate you simply have to become more aggressive. Not LAG or Maniac shit but controlled, laser focused, purposeful aggression.

    You can't wave a magic wand. As suggested above, start by becoming a 3bettor. Andrew Brokos has an excellent series on 3 betting he did a couple of years ago. Download Equilab (it's free). Start to develop a 3betting range that's not AA or KK but has a whole bunch of stuff in it. Know why it's there. Understand the SPR considerations of 3bet pots. Figure out how your opponents will react, What your response will be. Play simulated scenarios on flops and turns
    BoilerAce wrote: »
    If I keep reading hand corrections like, this maybe I'll get it through my thick head.

    You will not get it through your thick head by reading hand corrections. Only by doing the work yourself will it become part of you. Making you a confident, purposeful player


    BoilerAce wrote: »

    I always see a situation like this as wanting to get as many players to put money in for as many streets as possible and hope that they don't draw out on me.

    Good players don't hope for anything. Everything is calculated and purposeful

    All IMO

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