Pocket Kings Against a Serial 3-Better

Jordan PowerJordan Power Red Chipper Posts: 282 ✭✭✭
So I was playing $1/$3 at the MGM National Harbor outside DC. 5 pm. My stack is $320 at beginning of hand.

I got dealt KsKc on the button and was facing an open raise to $10 from the hijack. The table was playing very loose although hijack was tight and SB was tight behind me, but BB was a serial 3-better. He had a very wide 3 bet range and I wanted to beat him to the punch so with Kings, raise from $10 to $35.

All good so far? I feel like this is a fine play. Hijack has ~$440 in stack and BB has exactly $297. BB calls. Hijack calls.

Flop comes:
Kd,6d,3s.

Great news. Flopped a set. Hijack leads into me for $25. I call. BB raises to 75. Hijack calls.

How should I proceed? There's not a current hand that beats me. I put them on flush draws, well within both of their ranges. Is this a shoving situation? I worried about being drawn out on if called, so should I be trying to get my money in while I know I am good to make them pay for it?

Any advice on how to handle this situation would be appreciated. There's no laying down trip Kings just b/c of a diamond draw, right?

Comments

  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,486 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I am just calling here. Let BB fire again on the turn and trap HJ in the middle. On the turn I am getting all in vs a 2nd barrel. 80% of the time there will not be a diamond and you can get it all in on any other card. Yes, if a diamond comes I am still not folding.
  • Aran Whelan ByrneAran Whelan Byrne Red Chipper Posts: 25 ✭✭
    It's a call. Allow them to stack off the turn every time with it less likely of a diamond actually hitting and even so you still have equity.
  • Paul_KPaul_K DFWRed Chipper Posts: 259 ✭✭✭
    HJ small lead into 2 opponents showing strength. BB small check raise. To me, those just don't scream flush draw. :5d :4d possibly.
  • SullySully Red Chipper Posts: 732 ✭✭✭
    Put it in. They probably will too.

    If they don't want to play for it, well shucks, shove me the pot.

    Why would you let them dictate the price???
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 1,462 -
    edited August 2018
    I'm guessing the fact you know the BB has exactly $297 means the BB won. I think either raise or call is defensible. It can be harder to get flush draws to put more money in when they miss the turn.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • ButchButch Red Chipper Posts: 163 ✭✭
    Shove now. They won't call turn if they miss the FD.
  • dnoyeBdnoyeB DetroitRed Chipper Posts: 284 ✭✭
    At this point the pot is bigger than your hand. Why wait on a cooler card. They both love their hands. Shove. Otherwise if a flush card comes they will either fold or win.
  • Jordan PowerJordan Power Red Chipper Posts: 282 ✭✭✭
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    I'm guessing the fact you know the BB has exactly $297 means the BB won. I think either raise or call is defensible. It can be harder to get flush draws to put more money in when they miss the turn.

    No, he had just gone into his pocket for $300 after his flush got rivered by a paired board that made someone's boat.
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 1,462 -
    ah okay
    Moderation In Moderation
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 1,758 ✭✭✭✭
    The problem doesn't lie in your second flop decision, but in the 1st. Call/raise makes no sense with your range (it could, but it's hard to balance, and 3-way it screams KK).
    Either we raise HJ, or we turn KK into a bluff catcher and we only call.

    Also: HJ donk for 25$ in a 106$ pot. This bet sizing is an important info nobody pointed out yet.
    (With ~380eff with HJ after his donk, and 262$ eff with BB at the start of the flop action).
    Either it's weak - a marginal hand probing how we hit the flop - or it's a good hand which doesn't want to give a free turn card (mostly targeting PP under K).

    In such situation:
    - If BB is really very aggro, we could turn KK into a bluff catcher. But we need to be sure BB is going to squeeze often. We are here targeting BB, for him to bomb into our monster. We only call down (exploitative bluff catching against betting mistake).
    - If BB plays straightforwardly postflop, then I'm just going to raise HJ with almost 100% of my range. Kd6d3x is a great flop for a 3bet range, way better than for a 3bet-calling range. We are here targeting (mostly) HJ (finding folds through range advantage and folding mistakes; my plan is raise/fold flop and, if called, dub-shove almost any turn).
  • PropergoodPropergood Red Chipper Posts: 9 ✭✭
    edited August 2018
    RAIIIIIIIIIIIIIIISE, they want to put money in. You have the best hand. Give them the opportunity to put in more money, much more money. I am raising here always. 2 folds are fine too.

    Also I don't really like your flat, flatting top set on what seems to be a wet board in a 3bet pot. FD's, straight draws etc. You should play this hand the same as you would play AA IMO.
  • KemahPhilKemahPhil Red Chipper Posts: 101 ✭✭
    You got exactly what you wanted. There is now 300 in the pot and you have less than 300 left. You have to shove. If they fold, you've won a nice pot. If not, you're a favorite and getting 3:1 odds.
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,486 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Propergood wrote: »
    RAIIIIIIIIIIIIIIISE, they want to put money in. You have the best hand. Give them the opportunity to put in more money, much more money. I am raising here always. 2 folds are fine too.

    Also I don't really like your flat, flatting top set on what seems to be a wet board in a 3bet pot. FD's, straight draws etc. You should play this hand the same as you would play AA IMO.

    Flop ($106) comes:
    :Kd :6d :3s
    BB ($297) checks
    HJ ($440) bets $25
    Hero BTN ($320) hero calls $25
    BB raises to $75
    HJ calls $50
    Hero ?

    It looks really silly to go from calling $25 to shoving $320 here. I am fine with raising or calling in this spot, but I disagree with shoving all in. With only 1 card to come there is an 18% chance a flush hits the turn. You just need to charge 4:1 odds. I think raising to like $175 is fine here giving them a price they don't want to fold for allowing you to stack potentially both players or triple through. If they fold turn for your remaining $150 or so that's fine. By them calling flop you and folding turn you still practically double up.

    Playing AA and top set are not the same as one needs more protection than the other. One also blocks numerous top pair combos by 2/3 making a flush draw more likely than top pair.
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,432 ✭✭✭✭✭
    There's no laying down trip Kings just b/c of a diamond draw, right?

    Of course not. Have you done any math regarding hand equities? You can download an equity calculator, or you can use the one at
    http://www.propokertools.com/simulations

    So plug in Ks Kc for you, Kd 6d 3s for the flop, and the plug in whatever hands you want for the other guys (you might need to click on the "more hands" link). For example if villain one has Jd Td and villain 2 has 5s 4s, you have 55% equity. In other words, if everyone puts in $300, then on average you will be getting back $495, for a profit of $195 on the hand.

    If you're wondering what will happen if they fold, then that's even better. There's $105 in the pot preflop plus the $150 the 2 players put in, for a profit of $255.

  • PropergoodPropergood Red Chipper Posts: 9 ✭✭
    edited August 2018
    Austin wrote: »
    It looks really silly to go from calling $25 to shoving $320 here. I am fine with raising or calling in this spot, but I disagree with shoving all in.

    I think we agree, I didn't say go all in, I said put in a healthy raise. I also mean don't flat with top set on a drawy board and should you flat and it gets raised again your next action should be to raise again significantly $180~
  • KemahPhilKemahPhil Red Chipper Posts: 101 ✭✭
    Propergood wrote: »
    Austin wrote: »
    It looks really silly to go from calling $25 to shoving $320 here. I am fine with raising or calling in this spot, but I disagree with shoving all in.

    I think we agree, I didn't say go all in, I said put in a healthy raise. I also mean don't flat with top set on a drawy board and should you flat and it gets raised again your next action should be to raise again significantly $180~

    The hero does not have 320. He has 260 after calling the original 25. Seems a little silly to me to raise to 180 and only leave another 80 to bet. If they call 180 then they're going to call 260.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 1,758 ✭✭✭✭
    That's a pot geometry issue
  • VegaVega Red Chipper Posts: 31 ✭✭
    I don't think I have seen anyone mention this yet, but I have played with a lot of aggressive, high %, 3-betters. Was there a thought of just limping and letting him 3-bet first? Why would you want to beat him to the bunch by raising preflop first, if he truly is 3-betting at high %.

    I don't see how you don't shove the flop here. I mean, the hijack even called the 75 raise (which looks even stronger than the check-raise). How can the hijack bet 25, call a 75 raise, then magically not call a shove. I don't see how either of these guys aren't calling. It could be two flush draws, or one flush draw and a set. Shove.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 1,758 ✭✭✭✭
    @Vega : against someone 3betting too often (aka with a wider and weaker range), the answer is 4betting (merged range), not limping / limping more.

    (Although you still can develop a limping strategy)
  • jeffncjeffnc Red Chipper Posts: 4,432 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2018
    Vega wrote: »
    Why would you want to beat him to the bunch

    That didn't make sense to me either. (The reason didn't make sense, but having said that there's no guarantee he will raise.)
    Vega wrote: »
    I don't see how either of these guys aren't calling. It could be two flush draws, or one flush draw and a set.

    Yeah, not raising seems pretty fancy to me.

  • dnoyeBdnoyeB DetroitRed Chipper Posts: 284 ✭✭
    If he's 3betting wide then why would you shove with probably the best hand? If he's in here weak we don't want him to fold do we? If he's 3-betting wide he's more likely to fold to pressure right?
  • VegaVega Red Chipper Posts: 31 ✭✭
    Red wrote: »
    @Vega : against someone 3betting too often (aka with a wider and weaker range), the answer is 4betting (merged range), not limping / limping more.

    (Although you still can develop a limping strategy)

    @Red: Are we saying the same thing? I totally agree we should be 4-betting against light 3-betting range. In this scenario I only mentioned limping in this spot because the habitual 3-better was in the BB. So, my thinking was limp and let the BB 3-bet, then come back with a 4-bet.

    I have done this myself against a lot of 3-betters, when I am to their right, but maybe it isn't a good plan in the long term? It's hard to determine if they have a 4-betting range themselves.
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,486 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Do we know if the BB is a serial 3 bettor from IP or oop? We would need more data in general. Also on a high side BB will only squeeze around 15%, so why take the risk of him folding or calling the other 85%?

    I think hero should stick to a solid strategy and not FPS.
    spelling should be 3 bettor* not better.
  • VegaVega Red Chipper Posts: 31 ✭✭
    Leave my bad spelling alone. :)
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 1,462 -
    Vega wrote: »
    Leave my bad spelling alone. :)

    Dyslexics of teh Wrold, Untie!
    Moderation In Moderation
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 1,758 ✭✭✭✭
    @Vega you didn't say quite the same. To quote the post I was referring to:
    Vega wrote: »
    I don't think I have seen anyone mention this yet, but I have played with a lot of aggressive, high %, 3-betters. Was there a thought of just limping and letting him 3-bet first? Why would you want to beat him to the bunch by raising preflop first, if he truly is 3-betting at high %.

    If I understood this well, you proposed to limp more, with the aim to let Villain open first and then you 3bet.(*)

    This is a an adjustment, but not a good one - not the most optimal. You don't build the pot much (harder to play for stacks, esp. if stacks are 200+ BB) and it's hard to balance (both when limping and when opening yourself; at the end even maniac can fold if you show strength).

    What I proposed is that Hero still open-bets, Villain raises (3bet), and then we 4bet - or call, depending on the situation.

    Against a very aggro player, either your build a wall and let him crash into it (exploiting his betting mistakes) or your power-play him by raising more (exploiting his too weak raising range).
    The choice between both depends, for me, on position (relative to each others and to the button), effective stack size (deeper = raise more than call), postflop tendencies (still aggro or more straightforward) and other players (you don't want to play MW; if other players tend to call to easily, then better 4bet than call the 3bet).


    (*)Nota bene: a 3bet is after an open-bet ("2bet", when BB is the "1st bet"). A raise against limper(s) is still an open-bet - so would be when Villain fires after you limp. So in your post, I think you used the term "3bet" incorrectly.
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,486 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Red wrote: »
    @Vega you didn't say quite the same. To quote the post I was referring to:
    Vega wrote: »
    I don't think I have seen anyone mention this yet, but I have played with a lot of aggressive, high %, 3-betters. Was there a thought of just limping and letting him 3-bet first? Why would you want to beat him to the bunch by raising preflop first, if he truly is 3-betting at high %.

    If I understood this well, you proposed to limp more, with the aim to let Villain open first and then you 3bet.(*)

    This is a an adjustment, but not a good one - not the most optimal. You don't build the pot much (harder to play for stacks, esp. if stacks are 200+ BB) and it's hard to balance (both when limping and when opening yourself; at the end even maniac can fold if you show strength).

    What I proposed is that Hero still open-bets, Villain raises (3bet), and then we 4bet - or call, depending on the situation.

    Against a very aggro player, either your build a wall and let him crash into it (exploiting his betting mistakes) or your power-play him by raising more (exploiting his too weak raising range).
    The choice between both depends, for me, on position (relative to each others and to the button), effective stack size (deeper = raise more than call), postflop tendencies (still aggro or more straightforward) and other players (you don't want to play MW; if other players tend to call to easily, then better 4bet than call the 3bet).


    (*)Nota bene: a 3bet is after an open-bet ("2bet", when BB is the "1st bet"). A raise against limper(s) is still an open-bet - so would be when Villain fires after you limp. So in your post, I think you used the term "3bet" incorrectly.
    I got dealt KsKc on the button and was facing an open raise to $10 from the hijack.

    I think @Vega meant flat and let BB squeeze (3bet) since hero is already facing a raise.
  • FuzzypupFuzzypup Red Chipper Posts: 52 ✭✭
    Pot is $250 and you have a PSD. Just shove. Other sets are calling. Big draws arent folding. Pot is already enormous. Deny their equity or at least charge them for it and take it down Mike. HJ could very well have A3dd and feel committed or middle set slowplaying it. BB has nothing or he has something huge.

    And the impact of you calling and back raising will put players on the defensive psychologically. That is good for you. Makes them more predictable in later hands.

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