Tough spot with JJ

dfrankedfranke Red Chipper Posts: 3 ✭✭
(x-post from APT; first time posting hand analysis to either forum and I want to see where I get better feedback)

Seven-handed 1-2 NLH at my local cardroom. Just sat down at this table less than two orbits ago and don't recognize anybody.

Relevant players:

UTG (covers) - Hero
UTG+1 ($27) - Has not raised yet; limped a few times then folded before showdown
Button ($200) - has been very active so far, making pre-flop raises in three hands prior to this one
SB ($170) - No raises, bunch of limps

Pre-flop:
Hero opens from UTG for $6 with :Js :Jc.
UTG+1 calls. (Wat? Who flats a $6 open with a $27 stack?)
Folds around to the button who 3-bets for $20.
SB calls, BB folds.

Hero calls. In an expert game, with this much action I think I'd have found a fold here, but in a 1-2 game with a super-fishy player population, I'm not giving UTG+1 or SB much credit for a real hand.

UTG+1 shoves the remainder of his stack for another $7 on top. Calls all around.

Pot: $110
SB: $143 behind
UTG: covers
UTG+1: all in
Button: $173 behind

Flop is :6d :7c :9c.

SB checks, Hero checks. Not much to say here. It's a good flop for me but not so good that I'm going to donk out in a 3-bet pot.

Button bets $60. SB folds.

This bet is sufficiently committing that I quickly rule out flat-calling as a reasonable option here. I ponder whether to jam or fold.

There's nothing in the button's 3-betting range that he necessarily wouldn't C-bet in this spot, so I can't really narrow that range down any. I'm losing (about 90% of the time) to AA-QQ and 99. What might he have that I'm beating? Obviously TT. Probably most AK and AQ combos. Possibly some smaller Ax club combos. That's enough that if the button had jammed already, I could call. The math is complicated by the presence of UTG+1 who has some uncertain but probably small equity in the main pot, but I don't try to work through that any further and I just jam.

Button snap-calls.

Runout comes :Tc :9s, which makes me cringe on account of the trips and flush draws that just came in. But it didn't matter: button shows AA and takes down the full pot after UTG+1 mucks.

So how'd I play this? Was this just a cooler, or should I have availed myself of one of the exits?

Comments

  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 1,755 ✭✭✭✭
    Flatting preflop is horrible I think.
    By calling, you force yourself a) in a very small SPR pot, b) MW and c) with a capped range against an uncapped 3bettor BU. JJ will face overcards very often, and low boards - like this one - aren't great either.
    To me, it's either 4bet (with the intention to play for stacks preflop) or fold - depending on BU 3bet tendencies and range (and how he would continue against a 4bet)


    Also
    - Preflop bet sizing isn't appropriate. Out of the 6$ v. 15$ open bet sizing conflict, you've to knowledge UTG+1 small stack. 6$ allows him to flat - it's a bad play but you will see it regularly - , which you don't want because of the chain reaction it could create (someone squeezing and creating the situation you lived). I think you've to size here more on the 15$, to force UTG+1 in a fold/shove situation during his 1st action.

    - BU has been active and "making pre-flop raises", but do you speak about open-bet or 3bet ? (Some will say "raise" for an open-bet, I want to clarify his tendencies). If he "only" opened the 3 hands prior to this one, this says little about his 3bet tendencies.
    Out of the blue, the 1/2$ population tend to 3bet really nitty (QQ+; JJ+/AK); so if BU 3bet when he never did it before despite being active, I'd be very cautious.
    Yes, he could raise just to force UTG+1 to play his stack... still he raises Hero, who opens UTG aka with a tight range. So I don't think BU will go crazy/too crazy because of UTG+1 tiny stack.
  • Fernando OFernando O Red Chipper Posts: 75 ✭✭
    In an expert game, with this much action I think I'd have found a fold here, but in a 1-2 game with a super-fishy player population, I'm not giving UTG+1 or SB much credit for a real hand.

    What makes you think you are capable of making better decisions in an expert game? What do you know about the dynamics created by experts in this particular formation?
    - Those questions are for you to think about, not answer in this forum.

    As far as the formation of the hand is concerned, your play and thinking show arrogance (I can outplay the non-experts in a multi-way pot), and ignorance of rudimentary fundamentals (Stacks, Position, Formation, Board Texture, etc), and fear (the active btn 3bets, so maybe I can consider paying for stacks instead of a multi-way pot where I am likely to lack clarity and won't have room to navigate due to the Ratio of Stacks to Pot).

    Good news is you can make better decisions , regardless of the lack of experts in your 1/2 game, moving forward.

    F

  • dnoyeBdnoyeB DetroitRed Chipper Posts: 284 ✭✭
    I had similar trouble Friday.

    I opened from middle ~$13 with :JC: :JD:
    Button 3bet me to ~$30
    BB asks button his stack size then 4bets to about ~$90
    I call
    Button folds.

    Flop was low stuff like 3 7 9

    BB bets again about 1/2 pot.
    I call
    Turn was blank perhaps 2
    BB puts me all in for call.

    After a minute I folded. I decided he had a set and really I should have folded the flop. Maybe he had AK. But not likely. This happened to my QQ earlier same day.

    I need to get comfortable shoving or folding these preflop since I know I don't want to call post. Even with no over cards...
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,486 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Hero opens from UTG for $6

    In a $1\$2 game $10 is a standard open. Your bet size should be how much they are willing to call. For $6 they might not even look at their cards.

    Utg open 6
    Utg1 calls 6
    Btn 3bet 20
    Sb call 20
    Hero ?

    $54 in the pot with $14 to call. I am just calling here because of the general population only 3 betting QQ+ for the most part. I think majority of them do not even 3 bet AK because they don't know what to do when they don't make a hand.

    Flop ($110) :6d :7c :9C:
    Four ways to the flop with 1 person all in.
    There's nothing in the button's 3-betting range that he necessarily wouldn't C-bet in this spot, so I can't really narrow that range down any.

    You think BTN is cbetting an empty side pot on a wet texture with 100% of his range?

    He is playing his hand face up here. Two combos of flush draws AQs+, 18 combos of QQ+, so you are flipping against 2 combos, losing to 18 combos, and ahead of 6 combos of TT.

    This is a spot where even when your ahead your only slightly ahead and when your behind you're way behind. You only invested 10bb ($20) into the pot and this becomes an easy fold despite having an over pair.

    People try and justify their actions with "btn has been active" for stacking off with JJ in a 3bet pot. But as @Red said being active with raises and being active with 3bets is two different things. Since you didn't provide any details on 3bet tendecies we have to go off general population read and assume it's a strong 3betting range.

    If BTN had a higher 3bet tendency where you saw him showdown a hand like AJo or A10s as the 3 bettor than you can make a case for 4 betting. In my opinion the $27 for UTG+1 and the $20 for the SB is not enough dead money to consider 4 betting and stacking off with JJ here. I choose a lower variance play of calling and evaluating postflop play.

    I think QQ+ AKs+ would be bottom of my 4bet range here. Calling all my pairs 66-JJ, A10s-AQs, J10s-KQs, KJs+ that I raised preflop with and play poker postflop. The other hands like AQo-AJo, KQo, I am folding to the 3bet knowing its going to be $27 not $20.
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,486 ✭✭✭✭✭
    dnoyeB wrote: »
    I had similar trouble Friday.

    I opened from middle ~$13 with :JC: :JD:
    Button 3bet me to ~$30
    BB asks button his stack size then 4bets to about ~$90
    I call
    Button folds.

    Flop was low stuff like 3 7 9

    BB bets again about 1/2 pot.
    I call
    Turn was blank perhaps 2
    BB puts me all in for call.

    After a minute I folded. I decided he had a set and really I should have folded the flop. Maybe he had AK. But not likely. This happened to my QQ earlier same day.

    I need to get comfortable shoving or folding these preflop since I know I don't want to call post. Even with no over cards...

    1) don't hi Jack the thread. Its a totally different spot. Ill post it for you in another thread. Not all JJ is the same situation.
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭✭
    Welcome, @dfranke, to the the RCP Forum!

    Here's the short response:

    To determine your best move as played (i.e., fold or shove to BUT's cbet), you only need to answer one question: What are the hands that BUT would 3bet with pre-flop and then cbet with on this board?


    Here's the long response:

    Pre-Flop
    A few thoughts. First of all, why the open-raise to $6? Is that your standard raise? Like others here, that seems a little bit low. My hunch is that invites a looooot of callers, and then you're playing out of position in a bloated pot. That would, essentially, turn your JJ into a set-mining play. There might be other game or table factors, though, so I'd be interested to hear your thoughts there.

    Re: UTG+1 just calling the $6. Yup, odd. Once the Button 3bets, though, UTG+1 is almost irrelevant. If multiple players get to see a flop, then the action should get far beyond his $21 remaining and the side pot is likely to end up far larger than the main pot.

    Re: Button and his previous three hands. Did any get to showdown? If so, then what did he have? How did he play them post-flop? Did he win some, all, or none? Did he win by just betting other players out (unlikely, I would guess, given his stack size...)?

    Once SB calls, too, you now have ~$50 in the pot with a hand (jacks) that aren't ideal being played multi-way in middle position. Not ideal. Your response, though, will be tied in greatly to your impressions of BUT. Will he barrel with just about any two cards on any board? If so, then I could flat-calling to try to extend the noose for him to hang himself on. Still, SB's presence isn't ideal, and an odd flop and cbet could get you to fold out your equity in any hand -- and maybe even the best hand.

    Folding, IMO, seems too nitty. You're probably ahead of SB. If you get it all-in heads-up UTG+1, then fine -- you're way ahead of his range even his hand here happens to be better. Given BUT's play, there's also a darn good chance that you're ahead of him. In your shoes, I'd put BUT to the test by raising.

    The rub is his stack size. Normally, I'd suggest a raise to about $100, but that's more than half BUT's remaining stack. No point in that. That leaves a raise to about $60 or a shove. Raising to $60 gives you some fold equity in case BUT was just trying to steal, and SB doesn't seem the type to get big money in willy-nilly. You might fold both of them out with that re-raise; what UTG+1 would do is both unknown and, compared to the other players, pretty inconsequential. If you re-raise, then BUT might 4-bet/shove. You should be calling (depending on what info you have) given his play the previous few hands. If he happened to have a monster flop here after raising three times in a row beforehand, then kudos to him.

    In addition, raising to $60 also allows you glean info from SB if BUT does shove. If BUT shoves and SB calls, then folding becomes much more palatable. And it didn't cost you $200 to find that out.

    Obviously, all the above is pretty awkward. That also gives credence to the idea of shoving pre-flop.

    Again, a lot of this dependent on your read of BUT here...


    Flop

    In general, I wouldn't be flat-calling here, either. Again, the only exception would be if BUT is known to double- or triple-barrel with air. But, I agree with you that, absent that particular piece of info, I would call either.

    I also think that your assessment here is pretty spot-on. If you were ahead pre-flop, then you're almost assuredly ahead now. And, if you were behind pre-flop, then you're still behind now. What you do goes back 100% to the question that I keep coming back to: What are the hands that BUT would 3bet with pre-flop and then cbet with on this board?

    Once you answer that, then whether you fold or shove is simply a question of equity and pot odds.

    Once again, welcome to the forum!
  • dfrankedfranke Red Chipper Posts: 3 ✭✭
    @moishetreats

    My standard raise from EP/MP is (3+n)BB when I'm behind n limpers. Yes, this tends to get a lot of callers. I know (from oblique references in this thread and some of the PRO videos) that big vs. small open-raises at loose tables is a perennial flamewar here and don't expect to settle it in this thread, but here are my two cents on the matter.

    When players flat-call my 3BB raise with trash, they're making an error. Since poker is a zero-sum game, those errors necessarily benefit me. If I open bigger and induce more players to fold, that's inducing them to play correctly. Why would I want to do that?

    I expect this strategy to put me into lots of multi-way pots, so I tweak my opening ranges accordingly: lots of speculative hands, fewer broadways. I'll open 22 from UTG (set mining is insanely lucrative in these games) but won't open KQo until the cutoff. My range necessarily still includes some hands like big pocket pairs where I'd rather isolate and getting lots of callers is not ideal, but those hands are strong enough that even in a family pot I still expect to have a plurality of the equity.

    If I were to raise big with big pocket pairs and broadway hands and small with more speculative holdings, I suppose that would work for a little while, but I'd expect even bad players to catch on to this pretty quickly. I see getting suboptimal play out of the less speculative stuff as just the cost of an overall balanced strategy.

    When I land myself in early position in a six-way pot (which doesn't always happen, but does happen a lot), I'll necessarily be reduced to playing a straightforward fit-or-fold strategy on the flop. Some of the coaches here disparage this as "playing poker like a slot machine", and their description is accurate. But it's a slot machine with the odds stacked in my favor, because I'm playing a tight and well-constructed opening range against wildly ill-considered calling ranges.

    Anyway, I'm happy to be wrong about this, and happy to give larger raises a try for a few months to see how they pan out. But if there's an error in my logic, I'd sure like it pointed out.
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭✭
    @dfranke: Makes sense! The biggest question for anyone, IMO, isn't what you do but rather why do it. Seems like you have a plan -- and a good one!

    The key, as you noted, is that you are then forced to play your hand's equity post-flop rather than use the tricks in your bag. That being said, it sounds like you're making it work and work well, so all good!

    If you do want to experiment with a different-sized opening amount, then it would need to be consistent with your opening amounts later. The other way to look at it is the bigger question: How important is keeping your opening amount so methodical? And why?

    Of course, this is all a divergence (though it seems like a useful one) from the original hand post itself...

    Thanks for the explanation!
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,486 ✭✭✭✭✭
    When players flat-call my 3BB raise with trash, they're making an error. Since poker is a zero-sum game, those errors necessarily benefit me. If I open bigger and induce more players to fold, that's inducing them to play correctly. Why would I want to do that?

    Always opening 3bb because you know they will call wide making an error is not adapting to your table dynamics. Most players at $1/$2 will call $6 with the same hand they will call $10 with. They will be making a bigger error calling the larger raise with a weak hand. The key is to find the maximum amount of money they will call with a weak hand. Usually its in the $8-$12 range. I see people calling $20 opens with $100 stack with A3s, J7s, and some times as low as 54o. Have to keep your eyes glued to the felt, so you charge them the maximum error rate.
    I expect this strategy to put me into lots of multi-way pots, so I tweak my opening ranges accordingly: lots of speculative hands, fewer broadways.

    Can you elaborate on these speculative hands you put in your EP range? This seems like a major leak to remove broadways and add hands like 87s. If you think about SPR of these MW pots you are going to be put in a ton of tough spots. In general both of the speculative hands and most off suite broadways lose money from EP. UTG range should only be about 8-10% of hands.

    Lots of low stake players see others win with trash hands, so they start to play trash as well. They do not see the bigger picture. What your doing here is now playing these trash hands oop in a bloated MW pot. I understand what you are saying in general, but i'll save you some money long run by letting you know now this doesn't work. Small pairs sure, bigger suited broadways sure, but hands like low SCs and 1 gappers will lose money long run from EP.
    If I were to raise big with big pocket pairs and broadway hands and small with more speculative holdings, I suppose that would work for a little while, but I'd expect even bad players to catch on to this pretty quickly.

    Even if they do catch on they are not skilled enough to exploit it. You will not see a bad player start 3 betting you with A10o when you open $6 and folding when you open $10. They will continue to 3 bet QQ+ despite the sizing. I have thousands of hours confirming this. They do not catch on.
    My range necessarily still includes some hands like big pocket pairs where I'd rather isolate and getting lots of callers is not ideal

    You don't consider JJ a big pair? I'm fine with raising to $10 (5bb) and not $15. Some times with hands like KQs, AQo, TT, etc i'll make a small raise because I know i'll have some tough flops to maneuver on and they benefit from a higher SPR where i'm not just sticking my money in because i'm open ended or have TPGK.

    One thing you can do with your sizing is base it on your position. EP you have your strongest range so maybe open 6bb ($12) +1bb per limper
    MP open $10 +1bb per limper
    LP open $8 +1bb per limper

    Now you have AA in the CO and open $8
    You have AA UTG and open $12

    How are they going to adapt? You're betting your range not your hand.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 1,755 ✭✭✭✭
    Austin wrote: »
    When players flat-call my 3BB raise with trash, they're making an error. Since poker is a zero-sum game, those errors necessarily benefit me. If I open bigger and induce more players to fold, that's inducing them to play correctly. Why would I want to do that?

    Always opening 3bb because you know they will call wide making an error is not adapting to your table dynamics. Most players at $1/$2 will call $6 with the same hand they will call $10 with. They will be making a bigger error calling the larger raise with a weak hand.

    I can only support this.

    I will even go futher:
    I always open 15$ at 1/2$. They call me with bad hands, but at first I get fewer callers (1 to 3 instead of 3-6) - many just fold or limp/fold. But since I'm rather aggro, they start to not like folding preflop too much... and some start to adjust (very badly) by calling wider.
    At the end of the day, these call me with a range as bad as they would with a 3x open bet sizing, except I've a nice range advantage with a low(er) SPR and initiative.
    dfranke wrote: »
    I expect this strategy to put me into lots of multi-way pots, so I tweak my opening ranges accordingly: lots of speculative hands, fewer broadways. I'll open 22 from UTG (set mining is insanely lucrative in these games) but won't open KQo until the cutoff
    Not opening KQo is a mistake. This is a great hand. You want to hit QXX with KQ when people will come see a flop with bad QX and pay you a max with TP (or worst hands).
    You will find several post about AK v. 22 on this forum to nurture your brain. Flopzilla (and Flopfalcon if you're a nerd) will help you to understand how these hit postflop.


    Also 22 isn't a hand to open only on such table. It depends on your gameplay and strategy. 22 is for me a hand I open from UTG on most tables.


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