Good spot to donk the river?

JoshJosh Red Chipper Posts: 7 ✭✭
Hi all, I'm new here and I'd appreciate your thoughts on a hand I played this past weekend:

I joined Red Chip about 5 weeks ago and that is pretty much the beginning of me taking poker seriously. I've played live twice since joining, and in this most recent session, I took a line I've never taken before and I've been reviewing the hand. I'd love any opinions and criticism. In addition to the details of the hand, I'll give you insight on what I was thinking during the hand (in parentheses) and things I've thought of since I started reviewing this hand [in brackets]. Feedback on those thoughts is also welcome.


This is a 2-100 spread game; 1/2 blinds and a max bet/raise of $100. Mostly older straightforward players. This game has had a lot of limp-calling, rare 3-bets, and zero limp-re-raising.

I'm in the BB with Ts5s, about $330 behind. UTG+1 limps, MP2 limps, and the BTN raises to $10, a standard opening raise in this game. Players don't seem to increase their raise sizes when players in front of them limp. The BTN is the effective stack with about $180. He hasn’t been at the table long, but I think he’s a young ABC strategy type player and fairly tight. UTG+1 and MP2 are straightforward players who like to limp-call and play fit-or-fold on the flop. I call for $8 more. (I don’t expect the players behind to raise and I’d like to play this pot with more players if I flop well.) Both players call. Pot is $41 minus rake and we are 4 handed to the flop.

Flop comes AsQs9s. I have the third nut flush. I think for about 5 seconds and donk for $22. (I’m not worried about UTG+1 or MP2, as they will likely fold this flop, but I suspect that BTN will recognize a weak lead and float me before raising me later.) [I also would hate for this flop to check through, and if the turn is a non-spade, a second barrel might push a Ks or Js off the pot.] UTG+1 and MP2 fold, and BTN calls quickly. Pot is $80 [$5 max rake has been taken].

Turn is 5d and board is AsQs9s 5d. I continue my donking strategy by betting $40. BTN calls after a few seconds. Pot is $160. Villain has $110 behind.

River comes 8c. I consider betting the max for $100, but I’m not sure Villain will be willing to hero all his chips. [He hasn’t raised me yet so he probably doesn’t have AK or AQ or a set.] I decide to value bet for $50 which he calls quickly. I show the ten-high flush and he mucks, later telling me he had AhJh and “wanted to see if I had it.”

Was this a good spot to donk? If so, what else should I be donking with for balance? Thanks all!

Comments

  • LeChiffreLeChiffre NetherlandsRed Chipper Posts: 483 ✭✭✭
    edited August 2018
    First of all welcome!
    Josh wrote: »
    He hasn’t been at the table long, but I think he’s a young ABC strategy type player and fairly tight. UTG+1 and MP2 are straightforward players who like to limp-call and play fit-or-fold on the flop. I call for $8 more. (I don’t expect the players behind to raise and I’d like to play this pot with more players if I flop well.) Both players call.

    I think you should just fold your T5s here. The thing is that it just doesn't flop often enough and it's not like you're super deep to really get paid off. You're easily dominated and you're not drawing to nut flushes. Add to that you're out of position to a tight ABC player opener.. seems like a losing endeavour.

    Josh wrote: »
    Flop comes AsQs9s. I have the third nut flush. I think for about 5 seconds and donk for $22. (I’m not worried about UTG+1 or MP2, as they will likely fold this flop, but I suspect that BTN will recognize a weak lead and float me before raising me later.) [I also would hate for this flop to check through, and if the turn is a non-spade, a second barrel might push a Ks or Js off the pot.] UTG+1 and MP2 fold, and BTN calls quickly. Pot is $80 [$5 max rake has been taken].

    You think BTN, who you describe as a tight ABC player, is floating you with the intention of raising later? Seems contradictory. I'm behind a donk bet though for the reason that you described, but maybe a couple bucks more.
    Josh wrote: »
    Turn is 5d and board is AsQs9s 5d. I continue my donking strategy by betting $40. BTN calls after a few seconds. Pot is $160. Villain has $110 behind.

    I think this is fine but I think you can charge nut flush draws a bit larger (maybe around $50-55 ballpark). You said :KS: might fold but I really don't think so if you lay this price (might have straight draw or pair to go with it too). As a nice consequence you could get his stack inside on the riv.
    Josh wrote: »
    River comes 8c. I consider betting the max for $100, but I’m not sure Villain will be willing to hero all his chips. [He hasn’t raised me yet so he probably doesn’t have AK or AQ or a set.] I decide to value bet for $50 which he calls quickly. I show the ten-high flush and he mucks, later telling me he had AhJh and “wanted to see if I had it.”

    Tip for the future: don't tell us what villain had! This will skew our judgment of your play. Just say you bet $50 and that's all we need to know.

    I agree that it's hard to get paid at this point. You're really targeting strong Ax hands (I would say both AK and AQ are still in villain's range but probably not with a :XS:). Half-pot sounds perfectly reasonable for them to call you down.
    Josh wrote: »
    If so, what else should I be donking with for balance?

    Wouldn't worry too much about this but hands which have :KS: or JT with a spade seem like good candidates.

    Take everything I said with a grain of salt, beginning live player myself so would definitely urge you to look at others' comments more seriously :)

  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'm in the BB with :Ts :5s , about $330 behind.
    UTG+1 limps, MP2 limps, and the BTN raises to $10
    The BTN is the effective stack with about $180.
    I’d like to play this pot with more players if I flop well
    I call for $8 more.

    Did RCP teach you to defend your BB vs a 5bb raise with T5s?
    answer: no
    What should be the weakest hand you defend here with?

    Did you consider the SPR when defending T5s?
    answer: no
    SPR will be around 4. Does T5s play well oop 4 ways in a low SPR pot?
    I’m not worried about UTG+1 or MP2, as they will likely fold this flop

    Let's think about this statement for a second using the same logic you used when calling preflop "i'm suited maybe i'll make a flush." If UTG1 and MP2 are using that same logic, why would you not worry about them? They could each have Jxs for 6 combos of flushes that beat you and 7 combos of Kxs that beat you.

    :As :Qs :9s

    Why would you dismiss other flushes so quickly when your calling with T5s? You think they are folding K2s using the same logic?

    Postflop I am not going to get into. You donk bet around half pot on flop and turn and was scared to make a big value bet on the river, which would have only been about 2/3 pot. You got lucky to flop a flush and played it fast. How are you going to play T32r flops? What about Q 5 8? or Axx with two spades? How are you going to play other flops where you don't flop 3rd nuts, but catch a piece?

    Are you a pro member? I would go watch some videos on preflop fundamentals.
  • JoshJosh Red Chipper Posts: 7 ✭✭
    Austin wrote: »
    I'm in the BB with :Ts :5s , about $330 behind.
    UTG+1 limps, MP2 limps, and the BTN raises to $10
    The BTN is the effective stack with about $180.
    I’d like to play this pot with more players if I flop well
    I call for $8 more.

    Did RCP teach you to defend your BB vs a 5bb raise with T5s?
    answer: no
    What should be the weakest hand you defend here with?

    Did you consider the SPR when defending T5s?
    answer: no
    SPR will be around 4. Does T5s play well oop 4 ways in a low SPR pot?
    I’m not worried about UTG+1 or MP2, as they will likely fold this flop

    Let's think about this statement for a second using the same logic you used when calling preflop "i'm suited maybe i'll make a flush." If UTG1 and MP2 are using that same logic, why would you not worry about them? They could each have Jxs for 6 combos of flushes that beat you and 7 combos of Kxs that beat you.

    :As :Qs :9s

    Why would you dismiss other flushes so quickly when your calling with T5s? You think they are folding K2s using the same logic?

    Postflop I am not going to get into. You donk bet around half pot on flop and turn and was scared to make a big value bet on the river, which would have only been about 2/3 pot. You got lucky to flop a flush and played it fast. How are you going to play T32r flops? What about Q 5 8? or Axx with two spades? How are you going to play other flops where you don't flop 3rd nuts, but catch a piece?

    Are you a pro member? I would go watch some videos on preflop fundamentals.


    I mean I came here for feedback and since, as I said, I’m a beginner, I expect that I made some errors throughout the day. Is it common for people like you to show up in the comments and be condescending while ignoring most of what I asked help for?
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,090 ✭✭✭✭
    a) T5s is garbage. Don't play garbage. (bis repeatita)

    b) Don't play your hand, play your range. What do you do with nut flush? 2P? FD? set? TP ?

    c)
    Josh wrote: »
    [I also would hate for this flop to check through, and if the turn is a non-spade, a second barrel might push a Ks or Js off the pot.]
    Why do you want worst hands - here a draw - to fold?! You want them to pay!
  • JoshJosh Red Chipper Posts: 7 ✭✭
    Red wrote: »
    a) T5s is garbage. Don't play garbage. (bis repeatita)

    b) Don't play your hand, play your range. What do you do with nut flush? 2P? FD? set? TP ?

    Yeah, I suppose I got caught up by the pretty spades.

    Thinking about ranges rather than my hand is something I really had trouble with playing live. I really liked the lessons on it but I didn't do a good job implementing the strategy live. That being said, I like the thought of donking 2P and better, and I guess some NFDs if I wanted to balance?
  • JoshJosh Red Chipper Posts: 7 ✭✭
    You think BTN, who you describe as a tight ABC player, is floating you with the intention of raising later? Seems contradictory. I'm behind a donk bet though for the reason that you described, but maybe a couple bucks more.

    I probably worded that strangely. Basically I suspected that since he's tight, the AQ9 flop hit his range pretty well so he would be likely to come along and get aggressive later since he recognized my weak lead.
  • RoblivionRoblivion WisconsinRed Chipper Posts: 288 ✭✭✭
    Josh wrote: »
    Austin wrote: »
    I'm in the BB with :Ts :5s , about $330 behind.
    UTG+1 limps, MP2 limps, and the BTN raises to $10
    The BTN is the effective stack with about $180.
    I’d like to play this pot with more players if I flop well
    I call for $8 more.

    Did RCP teach you to defend your BB vs a 5bb raise with T5s?
    answer: no
    What should be the weakest hand you defend here with?

    Did you consider the SPR when defending T5s?
    answer: no
    SPR will be around 4. Does T5s play well oop 4 ways in a low SPR pot?
    I’m not worried about UTG+1 or MP2, as they will likely fold this flop

    Let's think about this statement for a second using the same logic you used when calling preflop "i'm suited maybe i'll make a flush." If UTG1 and MP2 are using that same logic, why would you not worry about them? They could each have Jxs for 6 combos of flushes that beat you and 7 combos of Kxs that beat you.

    :As :Qs :9s

    Why would you dismiss other flushes so quickly when your calling with T5s? You think they are folding K2s using the same logic?

    Postflop I am not going to get into. You donk bet around half pot on flop and turn and was scared to make a big value bet on the river, which would have only been about 2/3 pot. You got lucky to flop a flush and played it fast. How are you going to play T32r flops? What about Q 5 8? or Axx with two spades? How are you going to play other flops where you don't flop 3rd nuts, but catch a piece?

    Are you a pro member? I would go watch some videos on preflop fundamentals.


    I mean I came here for feedback and since, as I said, I’m a beginner, I expect that I made some errors throughout the day. Is it common for people like you to show up in the comments and be condescending while ignoring most of what I asked help for?

    @Josh you should get used to feedback on the forum being pretty direct, and punches not being pulled. @Austin may not have answered the specific questions you asked about, but I think most would agree that he pointed out some things that were more important.

    Two weak suited cards are just not the type of hand you should be calling with in this spot, because you are out of position to multiple players with a weak hand that needs to catch a flop and has a decent chance of being behind if stacks do get in against the described limpers. It so happens you caught a perfect flop and runout for it, but that's really the only way you can expect to win the pot.

    If people are weighing in on different parts of the hand than what you were looking at, I would recommend listening to their arguments and trying to understand why they're putting their focus where they are, because there are most likely important reasons for doing so.

    Welcome to the forum, and good luck!
  • Doug HullDoug Hull RCP Coach Posts: 1,768 -
    edited August 2018
    Josh,

    We watch for trolling and general rudeness here. I think @Austin was neither of those.

    Reread his response only this time assuming he has good internet. You will see his advice is correct and given offered in friendship.

    It is common for the error in a hand not to be where the querant thinks it is, that is why people here are not answering your question, but they are solving your problem.

    Welcome aboard, it takes guts to post hands. Yours was clearly written, well done.
    Co-founder Red Chip Poker,
    Author Poker Plays You Can Use
    Author Poker Workbook for Math Geeks
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭✭
    Hey, @Josh. Welcome to the forum!!

    I think that pre-flop has been covered :).

    Post-flop, I like the donk bet. Here's what I would have been thinking before deciding on $22 as the amount: What do I have do lead with here so that I can get an all-in call on the river (presuming that I triple-barrel)? If you do that BEFORE you decide on your flop donk amount, then you'll have no questions on the river AND you will extract max value.

    As played, I probably would have bet the max on the river. There aren't a lot of hands that would call $50 that would fold to $100. Indeed, simple math says that if 51% or more of the hands that would call $50 would call $100, then betting $100 has a higher EV (expected value). I'd be willing to wager that it's far more than 51%, too...

    (In this case, the fact that V snap-called shows that you could have gotten more. Granted, this is results-oriented thinking. But, I do use this as a litmus test: How much do I have to bet so that V has to make what he considers to be a difficult decision? If he snap-called or snap-folded, then there's a decent chance that I didn't bet the right amount depending on what my goal was for my bet.)

    Once again, welcome!!
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
    @Josh
    I'd love any opinions and criticism.

    I don't sugar coat my advice because that is not the best way for people to learn imo. If the forum only focused on how you played postflop you would lose a lot of money. The odds of flopping two pair or better is roughly 2-3% of the time. The mistake is not being made postflop, but preflop.
    I’d like to play this pot with more players if I flop well.

    If you play this hand 100 times over you will end up not flopping 2 pair or better 97 out of 100 times. 97 x $10 = $970 now lets say by some miracle the other 3 times you flop 2 pair or better and you win all 3 times and manage to get stacks in against 1 pair hands. 3 x $180 = $540 over the course of 100 hands you lost $430.
    I joined Red Chip about 5 weeks ago

    What did you study?

    https://redchippoker.com/crash-course/live-1-2-nlhe/

    I speak for myself and I think the community would 2nd this suggestion, but the above link for the $1/$2 crash course will help you on your journey.
  • CactusCardsCactusCards ArizonaRed Chipper Posts: 137 ✭✭
    edited August 2018
    @Josh - Answer the questions posed to you by Austin and Red here. There are tons of questions to be asking at every turn.

    The Forum is not a place to expect coddling from other members. Sometimes the truth can hurt, but no one here is coming from a place of trying to embarrass you or condescend. This is how we get better (I've had plenty of posts ripped apart that have really benefitted my game)

    I don't want to sound like a broken record, but:

    Work on your pf hand charts. RCP has Ed Miller's somewhere on the site (in CORE as well), sign up for UpSwing's too. Make them your own, adjust where needed (please get rid of any T5s hands). Figure out where the line is on hands you'll defend in the blinds.

    Ask:
    - What do you range your opponents on?
    - whats your opponents VPIP %?
    - If you 3 bet, what do you expect to happen?
    - What is your image? Do they expect you to defend any two cards?
    - What SPR are you creating?
    - What is your gameplan with a type, 1, 2, or 3 board?
    - How does that change if it's Static or Dynamic?

    If you don't know even one of the terms above you should seriously pull out your debit card and sign up for CORE right now. Its a great intro to RCP's videos and helps you really nail the basics (perfect for a beginner or vet)

    After that, implement the concepts in your game. Try Snowie, or take 1/4 of a buy-in and sign up for PRO.

    Welcome to RCP!
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭✭
    For what it's worth, I'm going to disagree a little about tone.

    When @Austin or anyone else is blunt or direct with me, I have no problem with it. None. I've been here long enough and have enough of a history with everyone to know where it comes from.

    That being said, I DO think there is place for provide context for critique for a new person on this forum. Even a simple, "Hey, @_____. Just a heads-up that I tend to be direct. Not meant to be offensive, but only helpful, and I hope that you read my comments with that in mind. And welcome to the forum!" Heck, even a simple, "Not trying to be harsh, but I have a lot of suggestions for you on this hand..." would work.

    Writing those couple of lines at the beginning or the end of a post is essential, IMO, when new people are here. It's not sugar-coating, and it's not coddling. It's just letting the person know where you're coming from. Ultimately, it changes the reaction from defensive (@Josh's understandable response to @Austin's first comment) to understanding if not appreciative most of the time.
  • JoshJosh Red Chipper Posts: 7 ✭✭
    Fair enough; my apologies for taking offense, Austin, and I do appreciate the feedback from you and everyone here. I did sign up for Pro and have made it about halfway through CORE, but I found that I had difficulty applying everything live. You’ve all picked up on one big thing I had trouble with—opening ranges.

    I suppose my next step is to answer some of the questions posed to me in this thread, so I’ll return shortly with that for anyone still interested. Thanks!
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭

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