3 Betting JJ

Aran Whelan ByrneAran Whelan Byrne Red Chipper Posts: 25 ✭✭
So I feel I made a few mistakes in this hand.

1/2 NLH, 8 handed

Villain = LJ, ($240)
Hero = CO, ($650), :Js :Jc

Villain info = LAG, been playing quite a few hands. Not happy I sat down beside him and making comments like "do you lose any hands?". I was value betting him well in previous hands and generally winning vs him.

Action starts with UTG+1 limp, MP limp and villain raises to $12 and HJ calls. Hero 3 bets to $40. Villain calls.

Flop ($99)
:Ac :Kc :6c

Check through.

Is this standard? Should I be betting here? I kind of felt I was betting into a dead pot if that makes sense. Like he won't continue with much I'm happy with.

Turn ($99)
:Ac :Kc :6c :4d

Check through again.

River ($99)
:Ac :Kc :6c :4d :8h

Villain bets $25. I think and fold.

I just feel I missed my opportunities to bet acting far too passively. Help would be appreciated as I really need to improve my game in 3 bet pots.

Comments

  • VegaVega Red Chipper Posts: 31 ✭✭
    edited August 2018
    I think my raise size would be a little bigger - in the $50 range. Our SPR is low already but I think a little bit bigger size here would make it easier to get it all in on with a more favorable flop.

    I like flop check, nothing better is folding and nothing worse is calling. I think I also like a check on the turn, as a bet seems weak and could open to a LAG check-raise.

    I hate the river fold. 5-1 here. You aren't better more than 16% of the time in this spot? I think the fold is the leak here - as a lot of lags make plays on the river and end up value-owning themselves.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 1,754 ✭✭✭✭
    Vega wrote: »
    I think my raise size would be a little bigger - in the $50 range. Our SPR is low already but I think a little bit bigger size here would make it easier to get it all in on with a more favorable flop.
    No need IMHO. An angry lag-y isn't going to fold easily, so by raising - which you should! - you aim to isolate him. If if 40$ does the job, no need to raise more. You could even size slightly smaller if limpers and callers are going to respect your 3bet "too much"
    Vega wrote: »
    I like flop check, nothing better is folding and nothing worse is calling. I think I also like a check on the turn, as a bet seems weak and could open to a LAG check-raise.
    I'll let GTO-experts coming with a solver answer. But for me, it's a bet
    - We have 2nd nut FD, and blocking strongly Villain's flushes/FD - I can only see a QcTc here. But many PP, AX, etc, who are going to be very unhappy with this flop.
    - Based on range, we have sets (AA, KK) when Villain could only have a sticky 66. (We also have AK, but Villain too: rare are those able to 4bet-shove without a PP, even if angry). We want to bet AA/KK, JJ with Jc is a good candidate to semi-bluff and make better hands (AX, KX) fold.

    We could advocate to check flop and bet turn, but I think we shall have fewer FE, so I'd rather start firing soon to find the fold.
    BUT
    I'd definitely underbet. (And not folding if he c-r)
    Vega wrote: »
    I hate the river fold. 5-1 here. You aren't better more than 16% of the time in this spot? I think the fold is the leak here - as a lot of lags make plays on the river and end up value-owning themselves.
    By checking both flop and turn, you're turning your hand face up: JJ, QQ, ~A2 type of hand.
    Calling is then a matter of range assignation, but a good player (Villain) should look for thin value after 2 check, with TP or even KX, I think - which aims exactly your hand.

    Bet sizing is important: 25$ into 99$? I usually pay attention to such detail, as some will bet straightforwardly (big with big hands and small with small hands).

    Do I call here? Meh...
    Bet the turn to avoid this situation!
  • AZMattAZMatt Red Chipper Posts: 49 ✭✭
    edited August 2018
    Vega wrote: »
    I hate the river fold. 5-1 here. You aren't better more than 16% of the time in this spot? I think the fold is the leak here - as a lot of lags make plays on the river and end up value-owning themselves.

    ^This. Why not call here against a LAG who is playing passive? I think he ends up stabbing the turn with KX or a weak A. If he bet 25 on the turn I probably would've continued anyway to be honest - you have the 2nd nut draw, and his actions aren't screaming A or K.
  • Aran Whelan ByrneAran Whelan Byrne Red Chipper Posts: 25 ✭✭
    Red wrote: »
    By checking both flop and turn, you're turning your hand face up: JJ, QQ, ~A2 type of hand.
    Calling is then a matter of range assignation, but a good player (Villain) should look for thin value after 2 check, with TP or even KX, I think - which aims exactly your hand.

    Bet sizing is important: 25$ into 99$? I usually pay attention to such detail, as some will bet straightforwardly (big with big hands and small with small hands).

    Do I call here? Meh...
    Bet the turn to avoid this situation!

    Yeah, this was my thinking on the river as well. I really only beating air and I could be wrong but I just don't think he has air enough of the time here.
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,486 ✭✭✭✭✭
    1) preflop 3bet is too small and will usually go 3 ways, maybe 4 ways if there is a cold caller. There is $71 in the pot with $28 for villain to call. Villain just needs a hand with 28% equity. I prefer a sizing of $54 here which is 4.5x.

    2) as @red said you have range advantage still on this board. Cbet doesn't have to be big, could even be 1\4th pot like villain made it. On monotone flops solvers cbet is small 1\4th - 1\3rd and with a small range of hands. JJ with a Club fits into that range at the bottom. If not betting the flop, then betting the turn with a small size and checking back river. If villain has a hand like 88-TT with a club he will likely call.

    3) also consider villain could have a wider range thinking if he calls HJ will also call. Given a wide range you have a thin value bet either flop or turn and then likely checking back on the river.
  • FuzzypupFuzzypup Red Chipper Posts: 52 ✭✭
    X Flop good
    X Turn good
    You must call river.

    When you check twice your hand turns face up. Which induces him to bluff. So when he bets the river enough of his range are bluffs that justify a call.

    If you bet the turn what that does is make him fold all worse hands and call better ones. The worse hands he folds are some of the ones he bluffs the river with. You have the 2nd nut flush draw and only 3 overcards for a Qx hand. Easy Xs to induce. So by betting the turn I think you remove a wide selection of hands that bluff the river. The chance he has exactly a Q :CLUB: that you already have beat are very small compare to the rest of his range. This hand is calling the turn most of the time or bluffing the river. QcJx (2) QcTx (4) compared to the rest of his bluff range. I think there is a much higher chance he bets his other bluff cards than you worried about charging this tiny range.

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