First question for me

SnieresSnieres Pine Bluff, ARRed Chipper Posts: 3 ✭✭
Been a RCPer only for a little while now, and this is my first post to the boards. Was in Tunica this past weekend playing in a 1/3 NL game.


Villain is aggressive player(will bet most flops when last to raise PF, will re-raise in position), but seems kind of loose(seen him show up at river with J8 suited, 34 suited, about any suited hands to tell the truth).

Pre-flop
I have about 450-500$, villain has over 1000$.
Villain is UTG +2 raises to 15$(Standard raise in this game is 12-18). Two callers, im in SB with A:HEART: A:DIAMOND: , reraise to $55. Villain calls, others fold. Pot ~$150.

Flop

K:SPADE: Q:SPADE: 5:SPADE:

I check being out of position as being re-raised would be even tougher spot, and Villain bets $125. I wasn’t sure what to do in this spot, I don’t think villain is capable of straight bluffs here, but even with semi-bluffs I think I am way behind.

I know I am probably leaving out a bunch more information that i should add, but not sure what. My thought process at the time was that PF his range is extremely wide, but the flop bet he only does with a made hand (AA, KK, QQ and any suited connector :SPADE: or :AS: x.) am i way off base with my thinking? If this is the range i put him on, I am pretty sure i made a good fold, but am i discounting other hands? I have been thinking about this hand non-stop since the game, and just dont see how he shows up with anything less than a semi bluff with Ax(1 spade).

Comments

  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Villain is UTG +2 raises to 15$(Standard raise in this game is 12-18). Two callers, im in SB with A:HEART: A:DIAMOND: , reraise to $55.

    Standard 3bet oop is 4x + the amount per caller.
    15 x4 + 15 + 15 = $90 would be standard sizing here with all your 3 betting range.
    but the flop bet he only does with a made hand (AA, KK, QQ and any suited connector :SPADE: or :AS: x.)
    Villain is aggressive player(will bet most flops

    Do you think he has a made hand when he is betting most flops?

    I think if villain is aggro enough where he barrels a lot turn cards I may fold the flop. You only lose to 3 combos QQ, 3 combos of KQs, 2 combos of AJs-A10s. Don't think he would use this large sizing with nut flush though.

    There are also hands like AsKx and AsQx that he would likely call preflop with so thats 6 combos you beat.

    Is he raising all suited hands from EP or only LP? I'm not giving him a flush based on the sizing. Could call and see what happens on the turn. He basically set up a PSB on the turn. If you think he doesn't bluff often you could wait for a better spot. If he bluffs often I might call down if no spade on the turn.

    Im not getting all in on the flop just calling down. You could also cbet like $60 and fold to a raise. Then use your other AsAx combos to put in your checking range to either check call or check raise.
  • SnieresSnieres Pine Bluff, ARRed Chipper Posts: 3 ✭✭
    A lot of thoughts/questions have opened up my poker mind of which I will share in a future/new post, but a first question for now. If I open to $90 as you say, wouldn’t a flop Cbet of $60 dollars on the flop seem small? Or were you saying Cbet $60 as played?
  • MediocreDegenerateMediocreDegenerate Red Chipper Posts: 15 ✭✭
    edited August 2018
    Snieres wrote: »
    A lot of thoughts/questions have opened up my poker mind of which I will share in a future/new post, but a first question for now. If I open to $90 as you say, wouldn’t a flop Cbet of $60 dollars on the flop seem small? Or were you saying Cbet $60 as played?


    I'm thinking as played because betting $60 into $180 pot seems weak, and gives him 4 to 1 pot odds.

    Also, depending on your image I'm Jamming a large % of my range if you 3 bet me to $90 and then c-bet $60 on a scary board.


  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
    If your range is constructed properly there is nothing wrong with a bet seeming weak. If it makes villain continue with even weaker hands thats good because turn bet is usually much better.

    The # of combos you arrive with on the flop is going to be weak in general. If you are trying to bet 70% of your range for a large sizing you will end up with villain having a strong range on the turn and you will have a lot of weak holdings on the turn with stacks already being leveraged.

    If your betting your weak hands and strong hands with the same small sizing you'll have less problems on the turn.

    Example ($2\$3)
    Hero ($300) raises UTG to $15
    Btn calls
    Flop ($35) :8H: :6H: :3C:
    Hero bets $12
    Btn calls

    Turn ($59) :QC:
    Hero ($273) bets $45
    Btn ?

    Now same example but different sizing because "I have an over pair and want to 'protect it.'"

    Flop ($35) :8H: :6H: :3C:
    Heron($285) bets $30
    Btn calls
    Turn ($95) :QC:
    Hero ($255) bets $65

    Example 1 you risked $57 out of $285 (20%)
    Example 2 you risked $95 out of $285 (33%)

    In example 1 does villain continue with hands like 77, 55, 44, A6s, 76s? Maybe but likely folds Turn. You gain value from them calling too much preflop and flop and then folding turn.

    Example 2 some of the weaker hands like 44 and 55 will fold flop and you miss out on value from low equity hands.

    Smaller cbet allows you to have more bluffs on later streets without leveraging stacks so fast, especially in 3 bet pots.

    https://redchippoker.com/pro/playlists/never-stop-3betting/

    This series still has some of the old school bet sizing but may help with your continuance range.
  • MediocreDegenerateMediocreDegenerate Red Chipper Posts: 15 ✭✭
    Austin wrote: »

    Smaller cbet allows you to have more bluffs on later streets without leveraging stacks so fast, especially in 3 bet pots.

    Sorry for being slow here.

    I understand not "protecting your hand" by over betting the pot but why would you give the correct odds to your opponent.

  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭✭
    Austin wrote: »

    Smaller cbet allows you to have more bluffs on later streets without leveraging stacks so fast, especially in 3 bet pots.

    Sorry for being slow here.

    I understand not "protecting your hand" by over betting the pot but why would you give the correct odds to your opponent.

    Say that you 3bet and then cbet the flop for 75%-100% of the pot. You're repping something very strong both pre-flop and on the flop. Odds are that you'll generate a lot of flop folds. That's good. When someone calls, though, you often need to double-barrel. That turn bet can sometimes be a shove. You'll get some folds there, too, and that's also good. And you might get some calls when you're ahead. Obviously, that's the best. It only takes one time to be wrong, however, for you to be stocked. That's the risk: When an opponent stays in, odds are that he has a monster hand or a monster draw. You're likely up against something big.

    Say that you 3bet and the cbet the flop for 25%-40%. Your opponents will stay with big part of their range (you put is as giving "the correct odds" to your opponent). But, that means that, when they call, they have far more than monsters or monster draws in their hands. That also means that you can double-barrel profitably since they'll have more folds in their hands. And the price of your cbet and double-barrel in this scenario is about the same as the cbet in the first scenario, thus, as @Austin writes, not "leveraging stacks so fast". The downside, of course, is that you have faaaaar less information about what V is holding, and, of course, you only need to be wrong once to get stacked.

    That, IMO, is the nutshell about the advantages and disadvantages of cbetting large or small.


    I know that some people swear by one or the other method (and, on this forum, you'll read some absolute comments). Rather, I would suggest that you have a purpose for your image and ask how your default cbet strategy in 3bet pots furthers the image that you want to create.

    At that point, like everything, you can assess what your image really is, who the villain is in the pot (or villains), and how best to exploit that.

    Like just about everything in poker, there is no absolute. Make sure that your play here is aligned with your meta-strategy and goal and then deviate when appropriate.

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