Is villains call standard?

SteveGSteveG Red Chipper Posts: 6 ✭✭
2/5 NL live full ring active game. Effective stack 1.3K. Straddled pot. button raises to 85. I flat in the BB and 3 others flat. Flop Qc Jd 3c. Checks to villain, he bets 125. I flat. Everyone else folds out. Heads up turn is a 3s. I check villain bets 250. I check shove for 1,090 which is 840 more. villain getting roughly 2.3/1 on a call. He tank calls with AsTc. river is a 2d and he tables the winner. I am just looking for perspective here. I feel like the check shove should get him off a lot of hands but in particular this specific hand. Do you think my line was terrible ? Greatly appreciate some feedback. Thanks.

Best Answer

Answers

  • VegaVega Red Chipper Posts: 31 ✭✭
    What is your hand?
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭✭
    Given that we know nothing about your or V's profiles...

    You probably don't have QQ (raise pre-flop), JJ is unlikely (maybe raise pre-flop or flop), and 33 is possible but improbable (raise flop).

    You probably don't have, say, TT or 55 or any single 3s in your range (the only single 3s preflop would be A3 suited -- but would you really call the flop? You can't have A3c...).

    What does that leave you that you're check-raising with? Maybe you slow-played up until now... but then why be aggressive? V seriously under-bet the flop and turn and doesn't seem that strong, so why would you shove a made hand? In addition, V keeps betting -- wouldn't you want to extend the noose to the river?

    Maybe you have AQ, got nervous, and tried to end the hand there to avoid getting sucked out on (but would you really do this with AQ?). Maybe you do have a monster. Or maybe you have KT, K9c, Axc, or just air.

    At this point, the pot is around $2,000, and V has to call around $750. He only needs to win about 1/4 times to make it profitable, and I think that it's reasonable that you're bluffing/semi-bluffing quite a bit more than that.

    IMO, that would be V's logic.
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,486 ✭✭✭✭✭
    $2-$5-$10
    Ep limps
    Mp limps
    Hj limps
    Btn ($1300) :As :Tc raises to $85
    Sb folds
    Hero BB ($1300) XX calls
    Ep calls
    Mp calls
    Hj calls

    Flop ($440) :Qc :Jd :3c
    Check x4
    Btn bets $125
    Hero ($1215) calls
    3 folds
    Turn ($690) :3s
    Hero ($1090) checks
    V bets $250
    Hero check raise all in $1090
    V ???

    Pot odds $840 to win $2030 needs 29% (2.41:1)

    Honestly given your line I think villain made a pretty bad call here. He blocks some flushes holding Tc, he only has 7 outs at most.

    I think you can have
    AQ (9)
    KQs (3)
    QJs (2)
    T9s (3)
    JJ (3)
    K10s (3)

    dllwvki16py4.png
    u8nn0sy4bsek.png

    I guess equity wise is pretty close. If you have crazy image and have hands like 6c7c here then I guess its a thin call.

    I couldn't see myself making this call without some sick live read. I play nothing like villain though.

    I will say since you lost this hand your calling range seems wide in the SB. Im not familar with 1.3k stacks, but 8.5bb raise im going to have a pretty tight range at 130bb.

    I also should include some KcJc, JcTc, AcJc hands as well....drops the equity down to 27%....thought that would be more.

    What do you think of my range assessment for you?
  • SteveGSteveG Red Chipper Posts: 6 ✭✭
    Yes. Thank you. It was 840 to win 1930 roughly 2.3:1. Do you think the call is standard ? Would you be making this call ?
  • SteveGSteveG Red Chipper Posts: 6 ✭✭
    @Austin I noticed I made an error total players in the hand calling the raise was 4 players that includes the raiser. I think your assessment of my range was spot on. However I had the K9cc.
  • SteveGSteveG Red Chipper Posts: 6 ✭✭
    Thanks @Austin appreciate the feed back
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,486 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Another angle after thinking a bit more about this hand is you block the weaker parts of villains range I.E T9s and KQ.

    I think if an 8 came on the turn you block the straight but can rep a bit more of a nut range as the caller, or if a 9 came same thing. Despite it giving villains exact hand more equity, if he had KK, AA, or AQ he would have a tough spot becAuse he could be drawing dead. At least against less sticky villains it should cross their mind.

    Out of curiosity why did you decide to wait until the turn, was it because the two players behind?

    If you call btn cbet from bb and then limper raises and you shove it looks like a draw.

    Curious what some 5/10 players think about this hand....
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 1,756 ✭✭✭✭
    @SteveG
    I think your line is super bad, which incited Villain to call too lightly.

    PREFLOP
    you limp/call preflop, so:
    - you don't have JJ+, AQ+
    - You shall not have KQ, AJ KJ too often.
    - QJs possible, QJo depends how much bad preflop call you make (going MW OOP with QJo in a straddle active pot... no thanks :smile: )

    FLOP
    - flop V underbet in a MW pot where it hits a bit everybody's range. You only call, which discount a lot 33 and QJ.
    - 3X is too weak to call OOP and with other players still to act. Could be with combo 3x (like 3cXc), but impossible since 3c is on the board.
    - no c-r discount FD and OESD.

    TURN
    - turn is another 3, making 33 almost almost impossible (33 was already discounted)
    - also means now QJ is counterfeited by KK and AA. Not the situation to c-r with QJ.
    - c-r with JX seems suicidal (same for TT and lower), and you've SDV.
    - QX makes little sense - and your QX are worst than his. And you've SDV.

    CALL?
    I see no good hand you can have. AT seems a bad call, but at the end:
    - you've no strong value hand
    - your draws are behind AT

    Yes, Tc isn't that great because we block OESD T9 and :club: FD, but still, you've no strong value hand and only weak

    BOTTOM LINE
    SteveG wrote: »
    Is villains call standard?
    [...]
    Do you think my line was terrible ? Greatly appreciate some feedback. Thanks.
    I don't think it's a "standard" call, but it's definitely a call.
    Because your line was terrible and your range super weak.
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,486 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Red wrote: »
    @SteveG
    I think your line is super bad, which incited Villain to call too lightly.

    PREFLOP
    you limp/call preflop, so:
    - you don't have JJ+, AQ+
    - You shall not have KQ, AJ KJ too often.
    - QJs possible, QJo depends how much bad preflop call you make (going MW OOP with QJo in a straddle active pot... no thanks :smile: )

    FLOP
    - flop V underbet in a MW pot where it hits a bit everybody's range. You only call, which discount a lot 33 and QJ.
    - 3X is too weak to call OOP and with other players still to act. Could be with combo 3x (like 3cXc), but impossible since 3c is on the board.
    - no c-r discount FD and OESD.

    TURN
    - turn is another 3, making 33 almost almost impossible (33 was already discounted)
    - also means now QJ is counterfeited by KK and AA. Not the situation to c-r with QJ.
    - c-r with JX seems suicidal (same for TT and lower), and you've SDV.
    - QX makes little sense - and your QX are worst than his. And you've SDV.

    CALL?
    I see no good hand you can have. AT seems a bad call, but at the end:
    - you've no strong value hand
    - your draws are behind AT

    Yes, Tc isn't that great because we block OESD T9 and :club: FD, but still, you've no strong value hand and only weak

    BOTTOM LINE
    SteveG wrote: »
    Is villains call standard?
    [...]
    Do you think my line was terrible ? Greatly appreciate some feedback. Thanks.
    I don't think it's a "standard" call, but it's definitely a call.
    Because your line was terrible and your range super weak.
    Straddled pot. button raises to 85. I flat in the BB

    I agree with a lot of things you said except
    you limp/call preflop, so:
    - you don't have JJ+, AQ+
    - You shall not have KQ, AJ KJ too often.

    Hero is in BB vs BTN formation facing a 8.5bb raise for a straddle pot. Hero can have JJ, AQ, KQ, KJ, AJ, and even AKo here some times. I am folding KQ, AJ, and KJ myself unless suited. May 3bet some of the time depending on FE with AQ, JJ, and AK. Most of my range will be JJ-77 & suited broadways.

    Rest of your break down is pretty good.

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