1/2 LIVE: Shoving the turn with bottom set

colorbulbcolorbulb Philadelphia, PARed Chipper Posts: 17 ✭✭
edited August 2018 in Live Poker Hands
Hero
2c/2s
[BB] --- $390

Villain #1
[UTG] --- $650
(Smart-ish LAG, always straddling and opening for $15 minimum)

Villain #2
[UTG +1] --- $350
(Seems to know what he's doing, but hasn't played a ton of hands, possibly card dead)



PRE-FLOP
  • UTG straddles for $4
  • UTG +1 calls
  • Three callers in MP
  • I call in the BB
  • UTG straddler raises to $20
  • UTG +1 calls
  • Two of the MP players call
  • I call closing the action in the BB

FLOP ($105)

2d/3d/5h
  • I check
  • UTG bets $35
  • UTG +1 raises to $85
  • Both MPs fold
  • I tank call
  • UTG calls

TURN ($360)

2d/3d/5h/8c
  • I shove for $285
  • UTG folds
  • UTG +1 tank calls for $245 remaining stack with Ad/5d

RIVER ($850)
2d/3d/5h/8c/Js



Was it suicidal for me to shove this turn? Worst case scenario is that one of my opponents has a higher set, but my sense from their play up until this point is that they would be aggressive even with their draws. I was sort of thinking in the moment that one of them probably does have the diamond draw, and one of them MIGHT have a better set (I was hoping it was a set of 3's, that way my hyper aggressive shove on the turn might scream top set or a flopped straight with A4 and give me fold equity in a worst case scenario. But at the same time, I was thinking that their ranges could be fairly wide and that diamond draws might be tempted to call. I ended up being right, but I'm wondering if my turn shove is generally suicidal. I feel like the UTG +1 player check-raising on the flop could easily have a set, if not a flopped straight, which would obviously mean that I'm beat. I guess my point is that I can't tell if I was smart in doing what I did, or if I was sort of just blindly deciding to be aggressive and not paying attention to other factors. ENLIGHTEN ME, RED CHIP FORUM

Comments

  • VegaVega Red Chipper Posts: 31 ✭✭
    edited August 2018
    I am not sure I would ever call the raise here, then open ship the turn. Might as well just ship the flop. Waiting till the turn just makes your decision harder and his easier.

    I would have shipped on the flop, but sometimes called the flop raise with maybe a less draw heavy board, but I would check the turn and let him fire. But mostly just shipping the flop.

    If someone has a bigger set, that's poker. :)
  • RCP Coach - Fausto ValdezRCP Coach - Fausto Valdez RCP Coach Posts: 817 ✭✭✭✭
    You cant be so scared of not having the nuts, if u already understand ure player profiles give action then simply realize how many hands ure ahead of that they will do this with, very few hands beat u while u beat a ton, take the good with the bad.

    Once u realize how ahead ure ahead most times, then plan ure hand around the board texture run outs and ure opponents tendencies
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  • colorbulbcolorbulb Philadelphia, PARed Chipper Posts: 17 ✭✭
    Well I was thinking that coming over the top of the $85 check-raise would be like lighting money on fire if either of my opponents had a set or better. So I decided to call, assuming that the LAG UTG player would call behind with overpairs and draws.

    With the amount of money on the flop, I felt like shoving there would get a lot of worse made hands and draws to fold, when I want them to stay in.

    Like you said, if someone already has a bigger set, I'm screwed. So why get all my money in now if they're going to easily call it off and stack me? Calling lets me keep worse hands in.

    Is that the wrong way to think about it here?
  • RCP Coach - Fausto ValdezRCP Coach - Fausto Valdez RCP Coach Posts: 817 ✭✭✭✭
    colorbulb wrote: »
    Well I was thinking that coming over the top of the $85 check-raise would be like lighting money on fire if either of my opponents had a set or better. So I decided to call, assuming that the LAG UTG player would call behind with overpairs and draws.

    With the amount of money on the flop, I felt like shoving there would get a lot of worse made hands and draws to fold, when I want them to stay in.

    Like you said, if someone already has a bigger set, I'm screwed. So why get all my money in now if they're going to easily call it off and stack me? Calling lets me keep worse hands in.

    Is that the wrong way to think about it here?

    yeah calling keeps them in but u have to find a way to make them make a mistake with that range, whether you think its on the flop getting it in or calling and allowing them to mess up with that range on the turn (like you did).

    as played i'm fine with the line you took in an exploitative manner since you probably made him commit with all the money in the middle, but i'm pretty sure you wont take that same line with a bluff. Just something to keep in mind.
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  • colorbulbcolorbulb Philadelphia, PARed Chipper Posts: 17 ✭✭
    You cant be so scared of not having the nuts, if u already understand ure player profiles give action then simply realize how many hands ure ahead of that they will do this with, very few hands beat u while u beat a ton, take the good with the bad.

    Once u realize how ahead ure ahead most times, then plan ure hand around the board texture run outs and ure opponents tendencies

    That was kind of my mindset. These guys seemed fairly loose and aggressive, trying to push weaker players out of pots. I could tell they had a sense that I knew what I was doing, so it was kind of like the three of us knew we were the "smart" players at the table, and everyone else was a fish. I knew these guys would be making plays against me, they liked being aggressive even with their decent draws, just because they had equity and knew the general player field was weak, PLUS they knew that I was smart enough to make intelligent folds against strong opposition in tough spots. So I felt like calling the flop check-raise would mathematically keep them in with worse hands/draws, while allowing me to make moves on blank turns (such as the 8c which happnened to come out). If the turn was a diamond, I would NOT have shoved. I would have checked and let them do whatever they decided to do, and then acted accordingly with pot odds and their ranges in mind. I would assume I'm beat if a 3rd diamond comes on the turn, but I figured I could call and not worry about that much until it happened. Which it did not.
  • colorbulbcolorbulb Philadelphia, PARed Chipper Posts: 17 ✭✭
    edited August 2018
    Hmmmm, ok. So if I'm not taking the turn-shove line with a bluff, does that inherently mean a turn-shove is never right? Because if I think my opponents are smart enough to know I'm never bluff-shoving that turn card, that would mean they KNOW I have a strong hand. I mean the guy even said, "You're all in, you must either have a set or a straight, but I think the pot odds are letting me call... so I call."

    Would a bluff-shove on the turn here ever be valid? For instance, let's say I'm the one who has Ad5d. Can I shove this turn representing sets or better? I guess that would be suicidal considering the UTG +1 check-raise. If I have the nut straight-flush draw in that situation, then he must have two-pair, a set, or better. So bluff-shoving would be terrible.
  • RCP Coach - Fausto ValdezRCP Coach - Fausto Valdez RCP Coach Posts: 817 ✭✭✭✭
    colorbulb wrote: »
    Hmmmm, ok. So if I'm not taking the turn-shove line with a bluff, does that inherently mean a turn-shove is never right? Because if I think my opponents are smart enough to know I'm never bluff-shoving that turn card, that would mean they KNOW I have a strong hand. I mean the guy even said, "You're all in, you must either have a set or a straight, but I think the pot odds are letting me call... so I call."

    Would a bluff-shove on the turn here ever be valid? For instance, let's say I'm the one who has Ad5d. Can I shove this turn representing sets or better? I guess that would be suicidal considering the UTG +1 check-raise. If I have the nut straight-flush draw in that situation, then he must have two-pair, a set, or better. So bluff-shoving would be terrible.

    Bluff shoving will be bad, there's to much in the middle to think your opponent will fold, That line was crossed from his flop raise forcing you to play for stacks or not. That's why i said exploitatively is fine because he will be super committed already.

    If you were the one with A5dd I wouldn't try to get someone to fold by trying to rep something better with how we have arrived on the turn. At that point your just trying to get there and attempting to make them fold is very hopeful.

    Dont level yourself, just realize that your opponent could hardly fold and go from there, that's all that matters.
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  • VegaVega Red Chipper Posts: 31 ✭✭
    edited August 2018
    colorbulb wrote: »
    Like you said, if someone already has a bigger set, I'm screwed. So why get all my money in now if they're going to easily call it off and stack me? Calling lets me keep worse hands in.

    The only hands that are calling here that are worse are pretty much flush draws and sometimes over-pairs. So when we call the flop raise, then open shove the turn, I don't see how the villain can make many mistakes. Your hand is face up here. Overpairs can no longer call (which I am not sure they would have on the flop), and now the flushes can get away as well. So in reality, nothing has changed at all, except players are more likely to fold flush draws with one card to come, rather than two.

    So I think if you are just calling the flop raise, maybe check and let them fire again. Or maybe try a smaller size donk bet to induce a re-raise. Otherwise, your turn shove looks way stronger than a flop shove in this spot.

    Imagine if you were villain with his hand. Someone shoved in the BB over your $85. You are thinking sets, but also overpairs, and big combo draws. People will push here with flush draws like 65dd, 67dd, or KQdd. -- A5dd is a big favorite over this range.

  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
    FLOP ($105)

    2d/3d/5h
    hero ($370) check
    UTG ($630) bets $35
    UTG +1 ($330) raises to $85
    Both MPs fold
    I tank call
    UTG calls

    Couple of things
    I feel like the UTG +1 player check-raising on the flop could easily have a set
    I guess that would be suicidal considering the UTG +1 check-raise.

    1) UTG+1 CAN'T check raise IP vs UTG.
    I was sort of thinking in the moment that one of them probably does have the diamond draw, and one of them MIGHT have a better set (I was hoping it was a set of 3's, that way my hyper aggressive shove on the turn might scream top set or a flopped straight with A4 and give me fold equity

    2) there are a lot of things wrong with the above statment. You flop a set and you are afraid of a higher set, so you want to turn your lower set into a bluff? Am I understanding that right?
    Well I was thinking that coming over the top of the $85 check-raise would be like lighting money on fire if either of my opponents had a set or better. So I decided to call, assuming that the LAG UTG player would call behind with overpairs and draws.

    3) You want UTG to stay in with over pairs and draws? Lets look at the odds your giving him.
    Pot $105 +$35+$85+$85 = $310 with $50 to call!!! You wanna give a flush draw 6:1? Even with AA he has 6 outs to beat your set, so 12% to see one card and he has 6.2:1 odds = 13% almost direct odds.

    4) let's look at the bet sizing. UTG the straddler raises to a measly $20 after 5!!!! I repeat 5 limpers!!!!! How strong of a range do you think he has? Now on the flop again he leads 1\3 pot $35 into $105 another small sizing, not showing a lot of strength or protection for an over pair.

    4.1) UTG+1 raises (not check raise) to $85! Another small raise. Does this make me think set? Not really... There is already $140 in the pot and he has a $330 stack with $245 behind after his raise. Looks like he wants to do one of those raise flop and check turn if I dont improve so I get a cheap river.

    5) let's look at their odds if you were to shove flop, and we can discuss this range in a bit
    If UTG+1 thinks he has odds on the turn with a FD vs a set ($245 to win $605 \ 28%) he will definitely call your flop shove. What you did was allow draws to realize their equity and fold on the turn if he was better at math and not get value for your hand.

    $105 (pot) + $35 (cbet) + $85 (raise) + $330 (effective shove) = $555

    Now villain has $245 to win $555 giving him 2.26 :1 odds or 30%.

    Which is better 30% on the flop with 2 cards to come or 28% on the turn with 1 card to come?

    Now if they do fold, thats still great! You take down a $225 pot, not including your shove, and deny them their 36% or so equity. Actually Ad5d is 38% against your hand.

    6) let's discuss the range you can shove here
    :2d :3d :5h board.

    *combos in parenthesis
    A4s (4)
    22 (3)
    33 (3)
    55(3)
    6d5d (1)
    6d7d (1)
    Ad10d - Ad5d (6)
    4d4x (3)
    *assuming you raise AJs+ preflop

    13 value combos and 11 bluffs.
    Notice I only did 4d4x incase they have a set you have some back door equity or block one of the fd outs vs a hand like AdKd.

    Low stake players always want to play tricky with sets because they don't have enough bluffs or are not willing to stack off light. Break this fear and you can become a top winning player.

    Side notes
    PRE-FLOP
    UTG straddles for $4
    UTG +1 calls
    Three callers in MP
    I call in the BB
    UTG straddler raises to $20

    What should UTG raise to in this spot? I'm thinking vs 5 limpers and standard open for a straddled pot being 3x ($12) I would go 8x ($32) maybe 9x ($36) because im oop.
    FLOP ($105)

    2d/3d/5h
    I check
    UTG bets $35
    UTG +1 raises to $85

    What should UTG+1 raise to? Note a PSB is $210! ($35 x 3 + $105). Im thinking raising to around $150 here with $180 behind. UTG would have to call $115 more to win $290 and likely face a turn shove. Not the best odds if he has a fd.

    Usually on a dynamic board (wet texture) facing a bet you want to raise around 4x which would be around $140. Static board 2.5x - 3.5x maybe more if you're looking for fold equity.
    FLOP ($105)

    2d/3d/5h
    I check
    UTG bets $35
    UTG +1 raises to $85
    Both MPs fold
    I tank call

    What should hero have done? ALL IN!

    Good luck with your next set! Hope this helped.
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭✭
    I'll (hopefully) add to the comments that @Faustovaldez123 and @austin have made.
    colorbulb wrote: »
    I mean the guy even said, "You're all in, you must either have a set or a straight, but I think the pot odds are letting me call... so I call."

    So, instead of shoving the flop, where V does NOT have the right odds to call and cannot put you on a hand (i.e., made vs. draw), you opt to shove the turn where V DOES have the right odds to call and CAN put you on a hand...?? IMO, this is very backwards.

    In addition, by taking this line, you remove all fold equity from your bluffs. Why? Because V called knowing that you had a made hand!! So, V either is ahead or has massive equity against you by calling the turn or folds. Shoving the flop obviates all the these issues.
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭✭
    colorbulb wrote: »
    Hero
    2c/2s
    [BB] --- $390

    Villain #1
    [UTG] --- $650
    (Smart-ish LAG, always straddling and opening for $15 minimum)

    Villain #2
    [UTG +1] --- $350
    (Seems to know what he's doing, but hasn't played a ton of hands, possibly card dead)

    One other thought: You player notes and their actions do not seem to line up to me in this hand...
  • colorbulbcolorbulb Philadelphia, PARed Chipper Posts: 17 ✭✭
    Thank you everyone for your thoughts and suggestions.

    The more I think about this hand, the more I agree that I wish I had checked the turn and let UTG possibly bluff (as he often likes to push people around), and let UTG +1 fire another bet, and then use pot odds and my read to determine if a check-raise shove would be appropriate then, or if I truly think I’m beat by a higher set or straight.

    However, I don’t see why shoving the flop over UTG +1’s $85 bet would ever be a good play. What would be the point of that if he could already have me beat with the aforementioned hands? I agree that my flop call —> turn lead shove was probably a bad idea, but if that’s true, I can’t see how shoving the flop would be any better when UTG or UTG +1 could easily have me beat already.

    Maybe I could have re-raised the $85 to put pressure on draws while also possibly being able to get away from my bottom set if I got shoved on at that point. But mainly I’m thinking that I still prefer my flop call over a flop shove. And probably should have checked the turn again, and reacted to my opponents’ actions from there to make a more sound decision.
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭✭
    colorbulb wrote: »
    However, I don’t see why shoving the flop over UTG +1’s $85 bet would ever be a good play. What would be the point of that if he could already have me beat with the aforementioned hands? I agree that my flop call —> turn lead shove was probably a bad idea, but if that’s true, I can’t see how shoving the flop would be any better when UTG or UTG +1 could easily have me beat already.

    Start thinking in terms of ranges rather than in terms of hands.

    If that's too nebulous, then let me know, and we can tease that out...
  • RoblivionRoblivion WisconsinRed Chipper Posts: 265 ✭✭✭
    So, instead of shoving the flop, where V does NOT have the right odds to call and cannot put you on a hand (i.e., made vs. draw), you opt to shove the turn where V DOES have the right odds to call and CAN put you on a hand...?? IMO, this is very backwards.

    What do you mean he has the odds to call on the turn but not the flop? The shove is the same size regardless of street, but he's twice as likely to make his hand on the flop.
  • colorbulbcolorbulb Philadelphia, PARed Chipper Posts: 17 ✭✭
    colorbulb wrote: »
    However, I don’t see why shoving the flop over UTG +1’s $85 bet would ever be a good play. What would be the point of that if he could already have me beat with the aforementioned hands? I agree that my flop call —> turn lead shove was probably a bad idea, but if that’s true, I can’t see how shoving the flop would be any better when UTG or UTG +1 could easily have me beat already.

    Start thinking in terms of ranges rather than in terms of hands.

    If that's too nebulous, then let me know, and we can tease that out...

    I hear you, but wouldn’t I still be behind many hands in their range?

    33
    55
    A4-suited
    64-suited (maybe, given the looseness of UTG)

    What else should I assume they’d have here? All overpairs to the board? Big diamond over-cards? Still feels like a rough spot for bottom set to shove the flop just because I’m afraid of the turn being another diamond or completing a straight. It feels simultaneously overly spewy against the top of their range, and overly protective versus their draws. Is that the wrong way to think about it?

    My range in the BB here would also include the made hands in their range, and some strong draws. But obviously my range narrows significantly when I lead shove the turn.
  • RCP Coach - Fausto ValdezRCP Coach - Fausto Valdez RCP Coach Posts: 817 ✭✭✭✭
    colorbulb wrote: »
    Thank you everyone for your thoughts and suggestions.

    The more I think about this hand, the more I agree that I wish I had checked the turn and let UTG possibly bluff (as he often likes to push people around), and let UTG +1 fire another bet, and then use pot odds and my read to determine if a check-raise shove would be appropriate then, or if I truly think I’m beat by a higher set or straight.

    However, I don’t see why shoving the flop over UTG +1’s $85 bet would ever be a good play. What would be the point of that if he could already have me beat with the aforementioned hands?

    because the same hands that exist when he did the initial raise are still there, they don't all of a sudden disappear.
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  • colorbulbcolorbulb Philadelphia, PARed Chipper Posts: 17 ✭✭
    Right. Gotcha.

    Do you think a flop check re-raise shove is better than a flop call and then checking the turn and re-raising when one of the villains bets again? Which they’re almost certainly likely to do. Or is a flop shove the best line here overall?

    I understand why my turn lead shove is iffy, but the flop shove feels overly aggressive to me as well. Maybe I’m thinking in too black and white of terms here.
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
    colorbulb wrote: »
    Right. Gotcha.

    Do you think a flop check re-raise shove is better than a flop call and then checking the turn and re-raising when one of the villains bets again? Which they’re almost certainly likely to do. Or is a flop shove the best line here overall?

    I understand why my turn lead shove is iffy, but the flop shove feels overly aggressive to me as well. Maybe I’m thinking in too black and white of terms here.

    Did you read my comment? I broke down all the math for you. Your comments seem like you just skipped over it.
  • colorbulbcolorbulb Philadelphia, PARed Chipper Posts: 17 ✭✭
    Thanks Austin. Yes I did read it, and have re-read it. It’s all still slowly gelling in my brain haha, I’m just trying to think of other scenarios because it seemed like not everyone in the thread was unanimously on the same page. But I appreciate you explaining everything so in-depth, it makes a lot of sense broken down like that.

    Do you think there’s ever any merit in just calling the $85 on the flop? Or is it a clear cut shove to you? Like what’s the magnitude of how wrong my flop call is?
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
    colorbulb wrote: »
    Thanks Austin. Yes I did read it, and have re-read it. It’s all still slowly gelling in my brain haha, I’m just trying to think of other scenarios because it seemed like not everyone in the thread was unanimously on the same page. But I appreciate you explaining everything so in-depth, it makes a lot of sense broken down like that.

    Do you think there’s ever any merit in just calling the $85 on the flop? Or is it a clear cut shove to you? Like what’s the magnitude of how wrong my flop call is?

    If you don't have a bluffing range, then I think calling to under rep your hand is fine, if players are capable of making exploitable folds with over pairs.

    However, if you look at the bet sizing from both UTG and UTG+1 neither reps strong hands, see my comment for reference. Now if you shove UTG may fold something like an over pair, but they have odds to draw vs your shove. Utg+1 basically priced himself into the pot. Look at the math and you will see even draws calls your shove.

    Gareth James, although I was slightly disappointed in the video, explained why he is folding KK on 8s7s3h board and only continue with draws vs someone with a low check raise %. Which is why I listed some other combos you can shove with as well so your range is not just sets and straights.

    Ps. There is no folding bottom set here.

    Turn A, 4, 6, diamond, there are 18 bad turn cards for you. @SplitSuit also made a recent youtube video on playing a set on a wet board.




    Really think about your range, future run outs, and opponents range. Do you have a program to check equity? Poker cruncher only like $10 for your phone. When you set mine, especially with small pairs there will always be an over card, so you have to realize this is part of your range that's for value. Don't turn your value hands into bluffs and don't turn your value hands into folds.

    Flop becomes clearer shove because 1\3 of the time you will face a bad turn card. Stop looking for ways to fold.
  • colorbulbcolorbulb Philadelphia, PARed Chipper Posts: 17 ✭✭
    Thanks man. Appreciate it
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭✭
    Roblivion wrote: »
    So, instead of shoving the flop, where V does NOT have the right odds to call and cannot put you on a hand (i.e., made vs. draw), you opt to shove the turn where V DOES have the right odds to call and CAN put you on a hand...?? IMO, this is very backwards.

    What do you mean he has the odds to call on the turn but not the flop? The shove is the same size regardless of street, but he's twice as likely to make his hand on the flop.

    After Hero calls the $85, UTG calls the $50. It's not a massive change, but it does have an impact.

    Your comment about V having the extra card and twice the likelihood only applies if V is on a draw. We don't know V's hand. And we don't know how UTG is going to respond. While your correct that perhaps the pots odds don't apply that much more pressure on the flop since Hero shoved the turn, the flop shove -- and this is how I should have written it -- is the pressure point.
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭✭
    colorbulb wrote: »
    colorbulb wrote: »
    However, I don’t see why shoving the flop over UTG +1’s $85 bet would ever be a good play. What would be the point of that if he could already have me beat with the aforementioned hands? I agree that my flop call —> turn lead shove was probably a bad idea, but if that’s true, I can’t see how shoving the flop would be any better when UTG or UTG +1 could easily have me beat already.

    Start thinking in terms of ranges rather than in terms of hands.

    If that's too nebulous, then let me know, and we can tease that out...

    I hear you, but wouldn’t I still be behind many hands in their range?

    When you think about ranges, you think about ALL the hands that each player could have, not just the best hands. Yes, considering who has top-of-their-range advantage is important, but it is faaaaaar less important to the range in general.

    Put it this way: If you're V with an overpair, you're hating being shoved on here. Why? Because the guy shoving could easily have a set or a monster semi-bluff that has more than 50% equity vs. an overpair. And, as V, you have no idea since they're both a real part of the shoving player's range. Heck, the shoving player could even have air here or pocket 4s...!

    Now, if you're V and shoved on and you have a set, of course you call. But, it is not a big enough part of V's total range that you need to worry.

    I'll add one more comment: If you're going to play 22 pre-flop to set mine, then the risk of flopping a set and losing is built in to the pre-flop call. Yes, you'll lose sometimes. And, no, you don't just have to get it blindly 100% of the time with 22 (but you do need an incredibly strong reason not to!!). If you're playing 22 and flopping a set, though, then you need to be focused on how to get paid off. Remember: someone could always flop a higher set when you flop a set of deuces. If the notion of getting it in with a set of deuces on the flop causes you to worry this much about being out-flopped, then I'd suggest (a) not playing pocket 2s, or (b) examining your mindset about risk tolerance.

    If V turns over his hand and shows you pocket 5s, yeah, I'd fold, too :). But, there are enough 4s or draws in V's range that you're likely ahead in this specific hand.


    And there's more. Ultimately, it's not about your specific hand (22) vs. V's range. Rather, it's about your entire range vs. V's entire range. That's next, though :).
  • colorbulbcolorbulb Philadelphia, PARed Chipper Posts: 17 ✭✭
    Good stuff. Thank you

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