JJ on SB vs BB Villain

John GunnerJohn Gunner Red Chipper Posts: 7 ✭✭
Was playing 2/5 9-handed at the Seminole Hard Rock Casino in FL. Just sat down at the table and might have seen around 10+ hands. So far the table is playing tight since i sat down.

UTG (750) Calls 5
MP calls
CO cals
Got a JsJd in SB raised to 90
Villain in BB (900) calls 90
Everyone folds
Flop is 3cKh8c. I bet 175 as a c-bet and to know where im at. Villain calls.
At this point Im putting villain in a flush draw or as set of 3's or 8's
Turn is 3s. I bet 250
Villain goes all in putting me all in. I folded

Later on I told the Villain that I had JJs. He said he was on a flush draw. But I dont know if i believe him. I think he is being untruthful.

What do you guys think of this play and the Villains hole cards?
Cheers!

Comments

  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
    What was your stack size?
    UTG (750) Calls 5
    MP calls
    CO cals
    Got a JsJd in SB raised to 90

    When you raise 18x over 3 limpers do you usually get action from worse hands?

    If you had AJ, KQ, 88 etc here would you make it $90?

    This bet screams "i hate JJ i hope everyone folds."
    So far the table is playing tight since i sat down.

    If the table has been playing tight, why do you think you need to raise so big?

    If you started with say 100bb ($500).
    Villain in BB (900) calls 90
    Everyone folds
    Flop is 3cKh8c. I bet 175 as a c-bet and to know where im at. Villain calls.
    At this point Im putting villain in a flush draw or as set of 3's or 8's
    Do you think vaAillain calls 18% of his stack with 33 or 88? What flush draws would you give him?

    Lets assume you started with $500 since you just sat down. Not sure of the structure there..

    UTG (750) Calls 5
    MP calls
    CO cals
    Got a :Js :Jd in SB raised to 90
    Villain in BB (900) calls 90
    Everyone folds
    Flop ($195) :3c :Kh :8C:
    Hero ($410) C-bet 175.
    to know where im at. Villain calls.

    Do you think a smaller size will let you know where you're at?

    Turn ($545) :3c :Kh :8c :3S:
    Hero ($235) bets $250?

    Maybe you started with $1,000?

    90+175 +250 = $515. How much did you have left?

    What flush draws call $90 preflop on a "tight table?"
  • John GunnerJohn Gunner Red Chipper Posts: 7 ✭✭
    I started with $750 and Villain had $900 (amounts in parenthesis). Forgot to mention that the table has been opening with 10x-12x, Only one person opens with 4x.
  • John GunnerJohn Gunner Red Chipper Posts: 7 ✭✭
    Austin wrote: »
    What was your stack size?]
    What flush draws call $90 preflop on a "tight table?"

    Dunno, prolly AKs or KQs? Thats why I dont believe him when he said hes on a flush draw.
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Austin wrote: »
    What was your stack size?]
    What flush draws call $90 preflop on a "tight table?"

    Dunno, prolly AKs or KQs? Thats why I dont believe him when he said hes on a flush draw.

    Ok so you put him on AKs or KQs for flush draw. Does JJ beat those hands?
    I started with $750 and Villain had $900 (amounts in parenthesis). Forgot to mention that the table has been opening with 10x-12x, Only one person opens with 4x.

    You mentioned their stacks, not yours. Also if people are opening $50-$60 that would explain why table has been playing tight right? Table has been opening 10-12x but this hand 3 people limp in? Coincidence?

    I think you should just raise to $40 pre here, probably check call the flop if player bets. Maybe check call turn if he bets again. River vs 3rd barrel I guess I would just believe him majority of the time. Or just bet small 1\3 to 1\2 pot on flop and evaluate how fast he calls. Look for some live tells.
  • TheGameKatTheGameKat Posts: 2,142 -
    I'm always very skeptical of betting to see where I'm at. Against anyone semi-competent who has position on me, betting is rarely going to tell me anything at all.
    Moderation In Moderation
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭✭
    TheGameKat wrote: »
    I'm always very skeptical of betting to see where I'm at. Against anyone semi-competent who has position on me, betting is rarely going to tell me anything at all.
    Flop is 3cKh8c. I bet 175 as a c-bet and to know where im at. Villain calls.
    At this point Im putting villain in a flush draw or as set of 3's or 8's

    @TheGameKat took my comment. Applying it to your hand: After you cbet and V called, do you really know "where you're at"??
  • dnoyeBdnoyeB DetroitRed Chipper Posts: 284 ✭✭
    I don't think you can know where you're at until you know how villain normally responds to that action.

    Did you learn any more about his habits throughout the night?
  • LeChiffreLeChiffre NetherlandsRed Chipper Posts: 483 ✭✭✭
    edited August 2018
    Betting because it's a c-bet is not a reason to bet.
    Betting to know where you're at is not a reason to bet.

    I'd also lean to check-calling flop. A bet doesn't accomplish much in this instance.
  • Bluffed_AgainBluffed_Again Red Chipper Posts: 91 ✭✭
    A lot of people have (rightly) gotten on you about your c-bet comment.

    Sometimes when people say they bet to “see where they’re at” they are really just not articulating their thoughts. What were you *really* thinking on the flop? In my head, my coach is always asking me “why?” when I’m thinking about an action. On the flop, my answer would be:

    1. This is a range advantage board, relatively dry except for the flush draw. As the preflop raiser I’m leaning towards a c-bet here to represent my strong hands. It’s a semi-bluff.

    2. If the player truly is “tight,” he’s probably also playing fit-or-fold. I would discount AA, KK, AK, because he did not 3B preflop (although you said he could have AKs on later streets). If he has suited aces in his range, I’d be looking to deny equity by getting him to fold that. So it goes back to his range…would he call $90 with a Axs? AQo?

    3. I’m OOP, so I’m more inclined to check than if I held position.

    4. The most obvious draw here is the flush draw, and I’m ahead of that and want to make the villain pay for his draw. If he’s really tight, doesn’t get the math, and his flush draw is less than the nuts, maybe he’ll fold.

    5. In the range that I put him on (which has nothing to do with what your villain range might be), Flopzilla tells me villain has TP+ 44% of the time. He has a flush draw 53% of the time. If I’m ahead 55% of the time, I’m more inclined to c-bet than not. I wouldn’t know the exact numbers at the time, but I’m getting better at the intuition in real time.

    6. Most players bet their flush draws (although does this “tight” player bet a draw?). If I check, and he bets, I have very little information unless I can pick up a bet sizing tell.

    Unlike what many people here have said, I would be betting this flop. Not a 90% pot bet though, it isn’t necessary to accomplish your goals. After that, I’ll evaluate the turn, but short of improvement I’m probably done.

    As for what he said at the end, I’d be suspicious because he called the pot sized bet on the flop and shoved the turn, which to me aren’t indicative of a “tight” player. Sounds more like he’s trying to deny you a flush draw with his made hand. That's based on my observation of the player pool rather than your specific opponent.
  • John GunnerJohn Gunner Red Chipper Posts: 7 ✭✭
    Austin wrote: »
    Austin wrote: »
    What was your stack size?]
    What flush draws call $90 preflop on a "tight table?"

    Dunno, prolly AKs or KQs? Thats why I dont believe him when he said hes on a flush draw.

    Ok so you put him on AKs or KQs for flush draw. Does JJ beat those hands?
    I started with $750 and Villain had $900 (amounts in parenthesis). Forgot to mention that the table has been opening with 10x-12x, Only one person opens with 4x.

    You mentioned their stacks, not yours. Also if people are opening $50-$60 that would explain why table has been playing tight right? Table has been opening 10-12x but this hand 3 people limp in? Coincidence?

    I think you should just raise to $40 pre here, probably check call the flop if player bets. Maybe check call turn if he bets again. River vs 3rd barrel I guess I would just believe him majority of the time. Or just bet small 1\3 to 1\2 pot on flop and evaluate how fast he calls. Look for some live tells.

    I apologize, I made a mistake. I placed the $750 stack size with UTG when in fact it was my stack size.

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