QQ over pair against 2 big nits...

EazzyEazzy Red Chipper Posts: 955 ✭✭✭✭
1-3 game....reg fest table

Villain 1 ....buys in deep, will calll ots of implied odds hands, but is always really proud at how he can fold AA. Does not raise AQ....does not raise AK from the blinds (not sure out of blinds)....raises rarely, Played a hand with him once where he called my raise 4 way pot from the BB with 43s....on an A25 rainbow board donked out 2/3 pot. got 2 callers (i had AQ)....he checked the turn on a 5 and then checked the river on a blank ten....When I bet 1/2 pot on river(probably a small mistake given this guy) he tanks says he putting me on AA and finally calls with his straight.

Villain2.... a very nitty woman. Set minds a lot....3 bets big always with AA KK, not sure she 3 bets anything else. Slow plays sets if the board is not to drawy.

Hero...Both players know me well as a TAG, often the only guy raising in many of their games, been running pretty cold, so been snug at the table for the last couple of hours but they do know me well, don't do anything abut it ever but do know me.

effective stacks are $400 with villain1 and $250 with villain 2...
.............................................................................................

Villain 1 in the HJ opens for $15, I look down at QQ in the co and call, Villain 2 in BB calls...

Flop 3 way $40 ish after rake....

T73 rainbow....

Villain 1 bets $20, I call, and villain 2 calls from the BB....

At this point I know Villain 2 does not have AA or KK ever, might have QQ JJ or a set, doubt she has something like 99 or 88 given a bet and call ahead of her....never has AK here as she is very fit or fold.

Villain 1 is a bit a harder....given how dry the board is might be playing AA KK but think he usually bets bigger here with these kinds of hand......QQ JJ he bets bigger to "protect" , miight have 88 99 and trying to see where out....mihgt have AK...and this is how he cbet bluffs, don't have a big history of him riasing pre flop ang getting to the flop???.

........................................................................................................................................................


Turn 3 way...$100 ish...

T Pairing the top card on the board and putting a backdoor flush draw up....

BB and HJ both check...and I check behind ???.......a bit scared that villain 1 could still have AA KK bets small on flop dry board and now scared of the top pair pairing.... Also villain 2 can have a full house, would play this way...could have something like ATs or JTS...

.......................................................................................................................................


River 3 way .....$100 ish....

Blank 6.....

Villain 2 (BB) checks Villain 1 (hj) checks, do I go for thin value here.....

Villain 1 might play AA or KK this way....and probably will not call anything else if I bet, don't think he bets this small on the flop with QQ or JJ.....and pretty sure if he has a bigger hand he bets know...

Villain 2....would always bet her full house or T on the river....probably not bet QQ or JJ...and cant really have any thing else...

I think I'm ahead here a lot but not sure if I can get much value for a river bet....pretty much the only hand I'm targeting with a smallish bet say $40-$55, would bet Villain's 2 JJ, and while dodging villain 1 nitty played AA KK.

Any thoughts....


Comments

  • VegaVega Red Chipper Posts: 31 ✭✭
    When I talk to people about poker and they are describing people at the table, they seem to believe they have absolute knowledge of said person. In this example, the way villain 1 reads, they just seem like they do things randomly. Saying they will never raise AQ may be a mistake - because they play by the seat of their pants.

    For me, I am raising QQ pre for value, considering you mentioned they call raises with 43s. They seem super passive, even when they have a monster, so lets isolate as much as we can.

    If I didn't raise pre-flop, I could see myself calling the bet on the flop and letting them value-own themselves. You are ahead hear a super high percent of the time, and you don't need much protection besides and A or K on the turn.

    The turn check is nothing I would ever do. You have a strong hand and its time to build a big bigger pot.

    Reading over how you described the villain, it almost describes how you played this hand. Really scared. I don't mean that to be mean. Almost everything you mentioned is them having a monster hand AA, KK, full houses. With this run out, holding QQ, if we can't find a bet on the turn or the river here, then we need to work on working out actually ranges and not just specific hands. I think it may be costing you a ton of value.
  • EazzyEazzy Red Chipper Posts: 955 ✭✭✭✭
    Vega wrote: »
    When I talk to people about poker and they are describing people at the table, they seem to believe they have absolute knowledge of said person. In this example, the way villain 1 reads, they just seem like they do things randomly. Saying they will never raise AQ may be a mistake - because they play by the seat of their pants.

    For me, I am raising QQ pre for value, considering you mentioned they call raises with 43s. They seem super passive, even when they have a monster, so lets isolate as much as we can.

    If I didn't raise pre-flop, I could see myself calling the bet on the flop and letting them value-own themselves. You are ahead hear a super high percent of the time, and you don't need much protection besides and A or K on the turn.

    The turn check is nothing I would ever do. You have a strong hand and its time to build a big bigger pot.

    Reading over how you described the villain, it almost describes how you played this hand. Really scared. I don't mean that to be mean. Almost everything you mentioned is them having a monster hand AA, KK, full houses. With this run out, holding QQ, if we can't find a bet on the turn or the river here, then we need to work on working out actually ranges and not just specific hands. I think it may be costing you a ton of value.

    You do understand this guy is a nit.

    Calling 43s $7 more in the BB after 2 callers is not a very out there play....It does not in anyway suggest to me that he will call 3 bets light.

    He almost never raises pre flop....he is a tight raiser....Yes he might sometimes raise AQ....88 99 maybe even some wider hands...like 89s or A9s......sure its possable not likely but possible...

    But that does not mean he will call a 3 bet light....at all. Yes I can't say for sure I've not seen him fold to lots of 3 bets ( he rarely raises so its unlikly), but I can be pretty sure that QQ does a lot worse against his 3 bet calling range then it does against his raising range....

    Why on earth I would want to isolate someone with a very strong range, I can not imagine. Against tight raisers my 3 bet range is AA KK and A5s and thats it.

    On the turn, its hard for me to come up with hands that I get called on, and there are still lots of hands that nitty players have that beat me. Yes an over pair of QQ is a big hand on the turn, but against nitty players when the Top card a ten pairs....you are getting paid off by almost no hands....except JJ....and maybe some backdoor flush draw like AKs AQs (and even that has to be discounted because nitty players often like to bet out small with hands like that).

    But by the turn lots of hands beat me that play this way......when I don't think I can get better hands to fold, and I don't have any worse hands that call...I don't see much point in betting, ect maybe to get them to lay down some equity....

    and yes I played this hand like an ubber nit. But when dealing with nits, who tend to play their hands face up, this is how I often end up playing with ok value hands....Now if you think I should try to get them to fold QQ KK or AA...by betting the turn and river. its an instresting idea..but I think I still have enough show down for the higher ev line to play for a showdown, maybe thin value on the river.


  • JoeOffsuitJoeOffsuit Red Chipper Posts: 398 ✭✭✭
    My first question is how often does Villain 2 call a $20 bet on the flop to close action on an $80 pot without a monster hand? If she always plays to set mine and folds everything that misses her set mine, then I believe we are pretty much dead after she calls the flop except hoping to peal a Q cheaply. But if she will call the $20 bet on the flop with non-nutted hands, then I believe we can take the aggressive lead on the turn.

    When we are checked to on the turn, it sounds like we can represent the ten here for trips, and by how you defined Villain 1, it sounds like we can get him to fold a pair higher than ours. I think the strategy now is to bet $60-$80 on the turn. If Villain 2 continues, we are done. But if Villain 2 folds and then Villain 1 struggles to find a call on the paired board, and then checks to us on a river, we then should be able to shove here if the river card is 2-Q, and reach this guys threshold of pain where he will proudly fold his overpair in fear of losing his stack to some Tx.

    The way you describe Villain 1, I think this might work enough to make it worth it.
  • VegaVega Red Chipper Posts: 31 ✭✭
    It seems like you just worked it all out. :)
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Preflop $1\$3 9-handed
    HJ ($400) opens $15
    CO Hero ($covers) :QS: :QC: calls $15
    BB ($250) calls $15

    Flop ($40+6) :TH: :7C: :3D:
    Bb ($235) check
    Hj ($385) bet 20
    Co ($covers) calls
    BB calls

    Turn ($100) :TH: :7C: :3D: :TS:
    Check x3

    River ($100) :TH: :7C: :3D: :TS: :6C:
    BB ($235) check
    Hj ($385) checks
    Hero ???

    1) We know both players are nits, so hero plays more nitty to counter. I'm perfectly fine with your flat call preflop.
    Against tight raisers my 3 bet range is AA KK and A5s and thats it.

    I would definitely widen this in position to most suited aces until they adapt. If they see you flat QQ and JJ against them they are going to be scared without AA against most 3 bets. Maybe not all Axs, but AKs-A10s, A5s-A2s, so 32 combos of Axs and 12 combos of Kk+.

    2) the turn is a range card for CO. I'm not one to use large sizing in general (maybe a leak, but my results are A+++), but I think turn can be an easy bet to charge hands like 98s, JJ, 87s (2 combos with bd), 88(1), 99(1), I could see a bet of $25-$35 here on the turn. I discounted 88-99 to 1 combo because it's not crazy to think 17% (1\6) BB overcalls with those hands. Maybe even a hand like AKs (3).

    3) Again the T73T6 the river favors your range, but if I bet the turn and got called I am likely checking the river against these players. If I check the turn back, I could once again see a small value bet $25-$35 here after facing two checks.
    I think I'm ahead here a lot but not sure if I can get much value for a river bet....pretty much the only hand I'm targeting with a smallish bet say $40-$55, would bet Villain's 2 JJ, and while dodging villain 1 nitty played AA KK.

    I don't think $40-$55 is small actually. Seems pretty like pretty standard sizing.

    4) I don't think you overall you have adjusted very well to beating nits. I don't think playing more nitty is the best way to beat them. I think you should be way more aggressive on textures that favor callers range. This hand is not a great example, but like 7s6d5s you can just bet bet bet and as split says "watch them melt" because they never have a set or straight here and are capped at 1 pair. Just polarize your bets with sets and draws, in terms of big bets, and use QQ over pairs as "thin value" for 1\4 pot bets.

    I think of nits as Humpty Dumpty sitting on a wall. You want to push them off and let them fall. Break their shell and watch them dwell.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,090 ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2018
    Austin wrote: »
    1) We know both players are nits, so hero plays more nitty to counter. I'm perfectly fine with your flat call preflop.
    I strongly disagree. Adapting by playing tight range v. tight range is just exchanging chips minus rake in cooler situation. You want to outplay them, not play their game !
    When Villains are nitty, it's time to drive the game wild.
    JoeOffsuit wrote: »
    When we are checked to on the turn, it sounds like we can represent the ten here for trips, and by how you defined Villain 1, it sounds like we can get him to fold a pair higher than ours. I think the strategy now is to bet $60-$80 on the turn. If Villain 2 continues, we are done.
    This is why I don't like betting the turn - same about @Austin proposition of betting turn checking river. V1 is somehow capped, but V2 isn't (much) as slow player. If you do bet with the aim of making better hands folding, then why do you turn QQ into a bluff ? QQ is way too strong to turn into a bluff (SDV), but too weak to sustain heat - esp. if V2 is a known slow player on dry-ish board (with 77 and 33).
    We want to bet turn polarized, not merged.
    Vega wrote: »
    WWith this run out, holding QQ, if we can't find a bet on the turn or the river here, then we need to work on working out actually ranges and not just specific hands. I think it may be costing you a ton of value.
    Disagree about losing "ton of value" bc nitty aren't the ones who like paying the most. But sure that not betting river after both check turn AND river cap their range a lot: No boat, no straight, no trips. We could find call from non believer (like AX kind of hands, esp. from V1) and call from many worst hands (mostly PP, JJ, 99, 88 and maybe some 7X can call).
    Not betting river is losing value for sure.
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
    @Red I don't think you read my whole post. I said a more aggressive strategy is needed to beat nits. Im fine with the flat call because of a poled 3bet range that contains more bluffs than value using blockers.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,090 ✭✭✭✭
    Oh my bad if I misread and misquoted you so ! Thanks for correcting my mistake :)
  • JoeOffsuitJoeOffsuit Red Chipper Posts: 398 ✭✭✭
    Red wrote: »
    If you do bet with the aim of making better hands folding, then why do you turn QQ into a bluff ?

    We turn QQ into a bluff because hero has put V1 on KK+, and V2 on either a successful set mine, or someone who missed the set mine and was pealing the turn cheap, with much higher probability of the later. With the 2nd T falling on the turn, we are able to bluff our entire range, including QQ, because this second T is going to trigger all of V1s worst fears.

    Of course we can't do this with impunity all night against V1, or he will certainly look us up at some point. We need to find the right spots for this, and this turn card on this flop based on how we have played preflop and flop appears to make a near perfect spot to employ this exploit.

    Red wrote: »
    We want to bet turn polarized, not merged.

    We usually do when we have our opponent on a mediocre hand who sometimes calls and sometimes folds. But when we have our opponent pegged on a better hand than us, and also that we can successfully bluff our entire range against his better hand, why not bluff our entire range?
  • EazzyEazzy Red Chipper Posts: 955 ✭✭✭✭
    Thanks all for the comments. I do think I have to think more of attacking nits tight ranges when their calling ranges are supper tight....This goes for 3 betting and taking players off hands...

    I think betting the turn and if villain 2 called but not layer 3 makes a lot of sense. Its probably higher EV then trying to get to showdown, against nits...

    As the hand played out I bet $40 on the river and villain 2 called with JJ, Villain 1 folded, claimed he had a smaller pair...
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Eazzy wrote: »
    Thanks all for the comments. I do think I have to think more of attacking nits tight ranges when their calling ranges are supper tight....This goes for 3 betting and taking players off hands...

    I think betting the turn and if villain 2 called but not layer 3 makes a lot of sense. Its probably higher EV then trying to get to showdown, against nits...

    As the hand played out I bet $40 on the river and villain 2 called with JJ, Villain 1 folded, claimed he had a smaller pair...

    If you had 3 bet pre how does villain respond with JJ? jJ was in the blinds correct?

    Hope to see future hands of you exploiting these players.
  • Fernando OFernando O Red Chipper Posts: 77 ✭✭
    Vega wrote: »
    It seems like you just worked it all out. :)

    Word dat.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,090 ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2018
    JoeOffsuit wrote:
    Red wrote: »
    We want to bet turn polarized, not merged.
    But when we have our opponent pegged on a better hand than us, and also that we can successfully bluff our entire range against his better hand, why not bluff our entire range?
    He has a range advantage, but doesn't mean there are only hands which beat us. Quid JJ? 99? AK?

    Also turning your whole range into a bluff means you're way way over bluffing.
    Considering the situation (facing 2 Villains; V1 somehow sticky/non believer; V2 possibly slow playing) this is a really bad plan imho
  • Dean MDean M Red Chipper Posts: 183 ✭✭✭
    Eazzy wrote: »
    As the hand played out I bet $40 on the river and villain 2 called with JJ, Villain 1 folded, claimed he had a smaller pair...

    And thus you prove that your reads of KK+ for V1 & V2 were way off...

    Raise pre for value, bet flop for value, make more money
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Dean M wrote: »
    Eazzy wrote: »
    As the hand played out I bet $40 on the river and villain 2 called with JJ, Villain 1 folded, claimed he had a smaller pair...

    And thus you prove that your reads of KK+ for V1 & V2 were way off...

    Raise pre for value, bet flop for value, make more money

    Depends how they see 3bets. I will some times not have a 3betting range if they fold too much to 3bets or I will have a non-value 3bet range at least as in zero big pairs. I want to keep them in with every thing postflop.

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