AA, the death hand.

Lachlan versluisLachlan versluis Red Chipper Posts: 16 ✭✭
Playing cash, 0.5/1$, 6 players.
Been playing with the same guys for maybe 2 hours, i've been very loose, aggressive and its been an up and down session. I wake up with :As :Ad in the BB. UTG2 ($204) limps, button ($21) opens to 4$. I choose to just call, hoping to get action from UTG2 being that he's got a stack worth getting it in with, UTG2 calls. :Qd :3d :7s I check, UTG checks, button jams. I tank for a long time, not because I'm worried Im behind, but again to try and induce UTG. UTG squeezes $49. I jam, he snaps. He has :3c :3h
Was it wrong to cold call the open? Was it wrong to shove? I feel like I can't call the raise then check down the turn and river. He's probably folding to a ~10$ re raise, I was just being greedy trying to get the stacks in. Which I did. Just not in the right way.
Cheers

Comments

  • GGECKOGGECKO Washington, D.C.Red Chipper Posts: 111 ✭✭✭
    I never cold call aces. Actually, I seldom CC anything - it's just not helpful for the stakes I play. For me, if my hand is good enough to play, I am asserting some aggression and building a pot. The same goes for my bluffs too.

    You mentioned in your post how YOU were playing...it may be helpful if you describe how your opponents were playing. Much more useful IMO. If the guy who jammed was a nit that was never saw a showdown without having the nuts, I may have considered folding. At the same time, I don't think I could have found the fold button either. Sometimes this shit just happens.
  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,090 ✭✭✭✭
    So many mistakes it hurts me from 15'000km away. Here is 2 big things I dislike

    PREFLOP
    Flatting pre is a blunder

    UTG+2 limp. Why do you think he would raise when he could pay an super cheap price to see a flop ? Maybe he badly limp/raise a big hand "à la Brunson" once every blue moon, but you've AA, blocking AA/AK.

    BU is super short. If you raise (as you normally should), you give him an apportunity to 4bet-shove - with a wider range considering stack sizes. You want this to happen. (And if BB made the mistake of calling your raise and BU shove, then you can 5bet shove and even can get UTG+2 to badly come along)

    If you don't raise AA, what do you raise? lol

    ON THE FLOP
    Raising is a blunder

    BB squeezed 49$ after BU shoved 17$ into a 13$ pot and you call. 49$ into a 47$ pot, more than 3x raise. It's a BIG raise. And it's a check-raise (rare for bad players).
    You block nut FD and UTG+2 is surely not aggro enough to bet a naked FD (if able to, he would also be able to open pre).
    Finally, UTG+2 CANNOT bluff. Even if you fold, there is no side pot to win and avoid losses by losing the main pot. So he has something good enough to push.

    Bottom line: "Don't pay them off!"

    I could see a call but only in a specific situation: if Villain is know to be aggro postflop(for example with KQo or combos draw paire+FD). And we should be able to call the next bullets as well.
    But still, AA with :AD: (blocking nut FD) is a fold because we block too many nut FD he would like to bluff with.
  • moishetreatsmoishetreats Red Chipper Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭✭
    Well, put it this way: You had a plan, and you executed it perfectly -- getting stacks in vs. UTG2. The fact that you lost is actually secondary.

    That being said, you're asking the right questions: Just because you executed the plan perfectly doesn't mean that the plan itself was perfect.

    1) Were you going to get it all-in on the flop regardless of the flop? It seems that way... If so, then that's an issue right there.

    2) Flat-calling aces here is a deviation from standard play. If you're going to deviate, then you need a compelling reason. Is getting some action from UTG2 compelling enough? My instinct is that it's not.

    3) As @GGECKO noted, what is UTG2's player profile? That affects your choices, as well...
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2018
    What is hero's stack size? Do you cover UTG2?

    In your post you say UTG2 and also say UTG, I'm assuming this is the same player?

    Let's look at the hand history details then dissect the hand. I'm actually ok with how you played it preflop, but will offer some constructive criticism postflop.

    6 handed (.5\1)
    Utg folds
    Mp ($204) calls $1
    Co folds
    Btn ($21) raises to $4
    SB folds
    BB Hero ($covers???) :AS: :AD: Calls $4
    MP calls $3

    Flop ($12.50) :QD: :3D: :7S:
    Hero ($covers) checks
    Mp ($200) checks
    BTN ($17) all in $17
    Hero ($covers) calls $17
    MP ($200) raises to $49
    Hero ($covers) raises to $200 effective
    Mp calls $151

    Main pot $63.50 \ side pot $366

    Does the above HH look correct?

    1) Do NOT share results of the HH other wise you will get bias comments 75% of the time, at least from some people. I think the above comments are fine though.

    2) pre Flop you have two choices between raising and calling. I prefer a small raise to around $10 (2.5x \ 10bb) because you are only raising $6 more, which can reopen the action. Will MP call $10? If so, BTN can now shove for another $11. Even if you just flat call the $11 to keep MP in, at least he is putting in $21 total preflop and creating a SPR of less than 3. Effective stacks would be $183 with $63 in the middle (SPR 2.9). Ok now as played, you have $200 effective with $12.50 in the pot creating an SPR of 16! Based on basic SPR guidelines should you stack off with 1 pair in a 16 SPR pot?

    3) check to PFR is fine. Another option with $17 left for BTN you can bet something like $8 trapping MP in the middle for a little bit of money. Im fine with checking though and calling the $17. What I am not ok with is
    I tank for a long time, not because I'm worried Im behind, but again to try and induce UTG.

    What is really the point of tanking? It's just really annoying and unnecessary. If you flat call he is likely folding any pair below Qx. If he has a flush draw there is no side pot, so he is likely just calling. Even with a hand like 8d7d low stake players don't raise this spot. 85% of the time MP has trash and is folding once you call, so stop wasting people's time.

    Now once you "induce" MP to raise what range do you put him on that calls a 4x shove? If there was ever a time to tank it's before you jam. When you tank call the btn shove, then 3bet over the raise it's pure hollywood to a competent player and we know you have a strong hand. Hence tanking is -EV!

    It's also important to note that the :QD: is on the board, so TP+FD is not possible strengthening villains range. You hold the :AD: further strengthening villains range. Do you think MP raises a hand like QJo on the flop? Does MP open limp hands as strong as KQ?

    The positive note is if you think MP limps KQ preflop, raises KQ on the flop over an all in and a call, then calls a 3bet shove for 200bb then you have 54% equity. If you don't think he has KQ.

    I gave villain 8d7d, 7d6d, 6d5d, 5d4d, 33, and 77 you have 30% equity. Really depends on how you think villain plays KQ between stacking off and folding.

    Last but not least tanking doesn't induce players to shove at any stakes really. A quick snap call on the flop is usually weaker than someone thinking and then calling. Can you tell us a story of how the last time you had a monster you tanked and someone shoved all in with nothing? Players are just playing their hand and mid to high stakes are just playing their range. There is no such thing as tanking to induce. You just make players like me change tables because its fucking annoying, especially in a small pot. Now if its a big pot and your faced with a tough decision or facing a big bet go ahead and tank for a minute and think about it.

    Hope this helps. Think about what hands you would call the btn shove with then reshove with after MP raises. Again you will likely find your just playing your strong value hands and tanking does nothing. Learn to play a range and you won't need to tank or do unnecessary hollywood that only is effective on fish, and will keep you at low stakes forever.
  • Lachlan versluisLachlan versluis Red Chipper Posts: 16 ✭✭
    edited August 2018
    Thanks Austin and everyone that's contributed. (UTG2 had me covered, I had 141 PF) i'll refrain from posting the result of the hand in future and I'll ditch the tanking, I guess I just look at it as if i'm utg2, I see a shove from the shortstack(looks like a steal) and then a tank call it looks weak, I guess a call is weak regardless of the time spent thinking about it. I'd squeeze to apply max pressure and deny equity to things like Q10, QJ, 910, middling pockets, all the suited connector hands, KJ maybe K10. Calling 3$ PF to make 10 would widen UTG2s range significantly I would assume. Obviously the reshove is strong and in hindsight there's not much I'm getting value from when called and i've turned AA into a bluff. Is it reasonable to call the shove from the BTN then fold to the re raise? I think part of the problem aswell was, I saw AA and knew I had a laggy rep, and decided I wanted to play for stacks regardless of the board. I definetly need work playing my overpairs. Blocking the nut FD should have been a major consideration for me aswell, reduces his bluffs and my equity by alot. That being said my experience is 95% live MTT, which is fundamentally quite different so I definitely need to make adjustments for cash/online which I've only just broken into.
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
    my experience is 95% live MTT,

    I love playing tourney players in cash! Pretty much because of the hand you posted. TP+ is the nuts to tourney players and their bet sizing is so small it's atrocious at times.

    If you are a lag - even more reason to 3 bet or raise the flop.

    As for stacking off I stand by what I said. What is the worst Qx villain will raise and call off with if any?
    UTG2 had me covered, I had 141 PF

    SPR drops from 16 to 11. Effective stack size is important. Won't play huge impact this hand as you still started with 141bb.
  • kenaceskenaces Red Chipper Posts: 1,392 ✭✭✭✭
    1) No one has died from AA

    2) A8 is the real "death hand"

    3) 3B preflop 100% of the time with AA if you like money
  • Lachlan versluisLachlan versluis Red Chipper Posts: 16 ✭✭
    My mental has died with AA. A8 is an easy fold though, no risk. AA promises riches and glory. Literally unfoldable (preflop). In future I will raise, I very rarely limp. I thought I was being trappy but in hindsight when I raise 95% of hands I play, limping seems very suspect and realistically is a face up trap giving my opponents implied odds on alot of their shitty hands. If i know someone has aces and they've limped, (obviously hard to 'know' but sometimes, you know) I'm more inclined to play gappy hands and try and retrap the overpairs. Lesson learnt, raise with aces.
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
    My mental has died with AA. A8 is an easy fold though, no risk. AA promises riches and glory. Literally unfoldable (preflop). In future I will raise, I very rarely limp. I thought I was being trappy but in hindsight when I raise 95% of hands I play, limping seems very suspect and realistically is a face up trap giving my opponents implied odds on alot of their shitty hands. If i know someone has aces and they've limped, (obviously hard to 'know' but sometimes, you know) I'm more inclined to play gappy hands and try and retrap the overpairs. Lesson learnt, raise with aces.

    I think you misunderstood
    2) A8 is the real "death hand"

    Should look it up.
  • kenaceskenaces Red Chipper Posts: 1,392 ✭✭✭✭
    My mental has died with AA. A8 is an easy fold though, no risk. AA promises riches and glory. Literally unfoldable (preflop). In future I will raise, I very rarely limp. I thought I was being trappy but in hindsight when I raise 95% of hands I play, limping seems very suspect and realistically is a face up trap giving my opponents implied odds on alot of their shitty hands. If i know someone has aces and they've limped, (obviously hard to 'know' but sometimes, you know) I'm more inclined to play gappy hands and try and retrap the overpairs. Lesson learnt, raise with aces.

    I hate it when no one gets my jokes :)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_man's_hand
  • dnoyeBdnoyeB DetroitRed Chipper Posts: 284 ✭✭
    Let me say I'm not as good as everyone else posting here.

    You are LAGy which is the perfect reputation to have when you find yourself with AA. Nobody should believe you so you should raise bigger if anything. You earned it.

    Interesting this flop looks wet to everyone but the person holding AA.

    Anyway, if you had bet preflop they probably call. Then you lead out on the flop and get called in 2 places. Then you bet the turn and shit goes crazy. But at least now you would be suspicious. Limp - callers tend to be set/draw heavy and not have many Qs...
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Interesting this flop looks wet to everyone but the person holding AA.

    :QD: :3D: :7S:

    I would say this board is more static. Only one possible draw and hero blocks the nf.

  • RedRed Red Chipper Posts: 2,090 ✭✭✭✭
    Austin wrote: »
    Interesting this flop looks wet to everyone but the person holding AA.

    :QD: :3D: :7S:

    I would say this board is more static. Only one possible draw and hero blocks the nf.
    Fun to read, when in another thread you consider :QS: :3S: :2D: a "wet board" and these 2 aren't that different to each other

    :)
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2018
    Red wrote: »
    Austin wrote: »
    Interesting this flop looks wet to everyone but the person holding AA.

    :QD: :3D: :7S:

    I would say this board is more static. Only one possible draw and hero blocks the nf.
    Fun to read, when in another thread you consider :QS: :3S: :2D: a "wet board" and these 2 aren't that different to each other

    :)

    Both static.... Can you link me to where I said that was a wet board?
    Austin wrote: »
    Red wrote: »
    kenaces wrote: »
    @mgauch I like your line up until the river. I think you can make a GTO case for calling with your JJ on the river especially since you said you never flat QQ(I think you should). I also think it is a close enough spot for your range that it likely doesn't matter too much if you call or fold.

    I don't see where you can see a call with JJ.
    At this stage, it's a crappy hand. Even distribution-based, we have better hands.
    JJ is not great as we block many bluffs: AJs, KJ... And holding both :JS: and :JD: makes it the worst JJ to have.

    I'm not GTO player and no 6-max online, but JJ just seem a hand to get hung up with (by AQ, KK+ and AdKd).

    Of the range you gave villain, do you think he is checking the turn on a wet board?

    Found the part you are referring to

    :QS: :2S: :3D: :6D:

    .... A little more wet dont you think then just the flop? I said wet board, not wet flop as we were discussing the turn, not the flop.
  • AceFromSpaceKKAceFromSpaceKK Red Chipper Posts: 281 ✭✭✭
    kenaces wrote: »
    1) No one has died from AA

    2) A8 is the real "death hand"

    3) 3B preflop 100% of the time with AA if you like money

    Agree with 1 and 3.
    2) For me it's AJ :)
  • LeChiffreLeChiffre NetherlandsRed Chipper Posts: 483 ✭✭✭
    edited August 2018
    [
    2) For me it's AJ :)

    Going off-track here, but this was recently posted on reddit. Forum posts in 2005 about playing AJ. Pretty funny. https://www.cardschat.com/f11/whats-best-way-play-a-j-56245/

    Edit: think the link doesn't lead anywhere, sorry.
  • dnoyeBdnoyeB DetroitRed Chipper Posts: 284 ✭✭
    Austin wrote: »
    Interesting this flop looks wet to everyone but the person holding AA.

    :QD: :3D: :7S:

    I would say this board is more static. Only one possible draw and hero blocks the nf.
    Well it's not wet AF but it's wet enough. My point was that the board can look wetter to someone without the :Ad and he even has the :As too.
  • kenaceskenaces Red Chipper Posts: 1,392 ✭✭✭✭
    kenaces wrote: »
    1) No one has died from AA

    2) A8 is the real "death hand"

    3) 3B preflop 100% of the time with AA if you like money

    Agree with 1 and 3.
    2) For me it's AJ :)

    Clearly, you are wrong about #2 because you were alive enough to write this post :)
  • Albert AAlbert A Red Chipper Posts: 95 ✭✭
    Wait..... @kenaces... A8 suited or...........
  • AustinAustin Red Chipper Posts: 5,483 ✭✭✭✭✭
    kenaces wrote: »
    My mental has died with AA. A8 is an easy fold though, no risk. AA promises riches and glory. Literally unfoldable (preflop). In future I will raise, I very rarely limp. I thought I was being trappy but in hindsight when I raise 95% of hands I play, limping seems very suspect and realistically is a face up trap giving my opponents implied odds on alot of their shitty hands. If i know someone has aces and they've limped, (obviously hard to 'know' but sometimes, you know) I'm more inclined to play gappy hands and try and retrap the overpairs. Lesson learnt, raise with aces.

    I hate it when no one gets my jokes :)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_man's_hand
    Albert A wrote: »
    Wait..... @kenaces... A8 suited or...........

    Did you read the link?
  • Albert AAlbert A Red Chipper Posts: 95 ✭✭
    @Austin My post was joke:) Believe it or not, I got it right away. I was just teasing Kenaces.

Leave a Comment

BoldItalicStrikethroughOrdered listUnordered list
Emoji
Image
Align leftAlign centerAlign rightToggle HTML viewToggle full pageToggle lights
Drop image/file